Vertical Power?

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:43 pm

http://www.verticalpower.com

Has anyone done any research on these guys? Have any info on them besides the propaganda on their web site? Their system looks really cool. I'm just waiting to see how much their system going to cost. I can't believe how far technology has come since I built the RV-4. No telling where it will be when I'm ready to build my panel.

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:08 pm

I saw something on it a while back but have not looked into it to far other than it looks like a lot of good ideas.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:59 am

Well Scott, Marc Ausman also has a 390 in his -7. He made www.io-390.com for a resource and to field all the questions about the installation. He is a sharp guy and is willing to communicate and share his thoughts and reasons why he did stuff his way.

Regarding the VP unit, the concept misses me entirely. I just don't get it to be quite honest. The thing I like about building airplanes is, nothing goes into it that isn't absolutely necessary. At the very least it needs to have a good solid reason for wasting real estate if it is going into the plane.

When I sold enterprise computer security systems we always addressed a "need" that the client had. This unit seems to do lots of things that are already being done in traditional manners, but doesn't explain why this box does them better.

To me, if I can use six single pole switches instead of this big electronic box (which I don't understand) I am going to use the switches.

What benefits of Marc's box do you like? Maybe I am just missing the pitch?

CJ

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:59 pm

I just like what it does. I would like it much better if there were a set of switches that controlled everything rather than softswitches on the display. I just think it's a cool concept. I don't think I'll be able to afford the $10,000 I bet it's going to cost.

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:06 pm

They just posted the price for the unit I was looking at.

Model: VP-200
Availablity: August, 2007
Price: $6,495

Includes one Display Unit, Control Unit, Switch Panel, remote-control key fob, USB flash memory, and interconnect cables. Requires data inputs from external GPS and engine monitor.

Nice unit but unless I win the lotto I don't think it will go in my plane.

Post by **Spike** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:23 am

Pretty slick. Im going to add it to the resource pages.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:37 pm

Spike, what is so slick about it? Can you put it into words? What do you like about it?

CJ

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:01 pm

CJ,

I have been talking with Marc about both the VP-100 as well as the VP-200. Bob Nuckolls as well as Stein were both involved in the early design and still recommend this concept/product today.

Both products represent a major leap in technology. The monitoring and safety features as well as the ease of connections makes this a phenomenal improvement over legacy electrical systems.

Reading the information as presented on the website is very enlightning.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:22 pm

Well Bret, I am sure this is all true. I am just not sold on it yet.

I have looked at the website, but found nothing "compelling". At least nothing compelling enough for me to make a purchase.

I guess that I don't see the merits for their entire value.

What exactly do you like about it?

I guess that I am a skeptical yankee.

CJ

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:27 pm

smithhb wrote:CJ,

I have been talking with Marc about both the VP-100 as well as the VP-200. Bob Nuckolls as well as Stein were both involved in the early design and still recommend this concept/product today.

HOLD THE PHONE!

Bob Nuckolls recommends this product? Where? I'd be really interested in reading what he has to say. He always seemed to me to be a strictly wire and switches kind of guy. He doesn't like the EXP Bus. I'm surprised to hear that he's on board with this product.

Not doubting what you say though. Just really surprising is all. If Nuckolls and Stein like the product then there must be something to it.

CJ,
I just really like that it monitors all the electrical components that are in it and connected to it. Absolutely I can do the same thing far cheaper with my mark 1 eyeballs but I like having a device that is dedicated to that monitoring and can make suggestions when things go wrong. I like this thing turning on my boost pump when I forget (of course I use a checklist). I like that it will put my flaps up and down for me (fully controllable on the approach).

Have you taken the virtual flight on their website? It pretty much lays out all the features I like about the product. ( http://www.verticalpower.com/Take%2Da%2DFlight/ )

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:21 am

I called Mark at VP a few weeks ago and had a nice conversation about the product and it's development. During the conversation I specifically asked about how Bob might view the product (knowing his leanings after following the Aeroelectric List for the past three years).

He told me that they had consulted with Bob from the beginning and he was credited with several of the key decisions in the product development. He also said that they were going to be low-key in the early stages until the products are vetted out.

I probably should refrain from saying that Bob "endorses" the product. However, if you read the literature closely, you can see the Nuckolls "touch" in several areas.

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:44 pm

Here's a blog from a Vertical Power beta tester.

http://legacyair.blogspot.com/

svanarts · Post by **svanarts** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:47 pm

Bret,
Wow. I understand what you're saying about not wanting to overstate Bob Nuckolls' involvement but you obviously know about his "leanings" too. What is being said that is not being said (if you follow me) is really major in my book. If VP can nail a Nuckoll's endorsement at some point that's going to swing a bunch of RV'ers in their favor.

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:13 am

Scott,

As you are aware, any endorsement will be viewed both positively as well as negatively, depending on the viewer. There are many folks who would purchase the product simply because Bob spoke favorably of it... There are those who would NOT for the same reason.

Marc and his team at Vertical Power have obviously done their homework. He has put together a team with some pretty impressive credentials. He has developed a totally new product (which cannot easily be defined since there is no "niche" out there already) which represents a major leap forward in electrical system function and monitoring.

The design is fairly simple, the use of modern technology (i.e. "smart switches") is what makes it desirable. The redundancy, background monitoring, and fail-safe capabilities offers a lot for those who prefer this level of work-load reduction.

Therefore, they have decided to launch the product and let it stand on it's own merit. No gimmicks, no fanfare, no paid endorsements, etc. If you want, drop Bob an email and ask him his take. Give Stein a call (that's what I did) and see what he says.

I suppose we will know soon enough when the product is released after Oshkosh.

Post by **Spike** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:37 am

captain_john wrote:Spike, what is so slick about it? Can you put it into words? What do you like about it?

It reminds me of driving fire engines. Most pumpers now a days have load management systems to monitor the electrical load and shed unecessary things when the load gets too high. It was a great thing to have as you didn't have to watch the house when things got busy. Carrying the same idea into this arena I think would be neat.

ptrotter · Post by **ptrotter** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:50 pm

I saw the prototype of this uni, in a plane at Osh last year. It looked interesting and it was cool the way you chose a mode such as pre-flight, cruise, etc., and it set everything for that mode; however, this is an area where I am not comfortable turning the responsibility over to a computer. I want to maintain complete control, through simple means, over all the devices in my plane. I was concerned as to what happens if there is a failure in the unit, either hardware or software, and what it would do. I think the concept is geat, but I'm not sure I'm ready for it and I'm about as high tech as anyone.

marcausman · Post by **marcausman** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:01 pm

I’ve been following this thread with interest and wanted to share a few thoughts if I could. First, I encourage anyone with questions to call us directly at 505 715-6172 if you can’t get an answer here on the forums or just want to chat about the product. Even after normal work hours.. we’re often here late (to the dismay of our wives

).

Next, we’ve put a lot of documentation up on the web site http://www.verticalpower.com/documents.html so you can see for yourself what the product is all about. We’re also sharing a lot of the testing that we do and posting it on the web. Certified products have defined standards to pass, but experimental products do not so we thought it would valuable for builders to see what we’re doing and evaluate for themselves if the product is solid.

Finally, it seems relevant to look back on history and see the impact of recent advances in aviation. Perhaps these examples will shed some light on how we view our products. One big advancement was the introduction of GPS moving maps. Remember the big debate about moving maps vs. VOR needles? Well, it’s probably safe to say that almost every plane built today has a GPS moving map in it. And I’d further venture to guess that pilots use that 99% of the time vs tracking a needle. Another example in recent years is the huge adoption of glass cockpit EFIS and engine monitor displays. Steam gauges will show you the basic info you need, so why are most pilots going glass? Everyone has their own reasons, but that fact is it is happening in a big way.

We believe that with the increased demands on an aircraft electrical system, the old way of wiring works, but the technology exists to do much better. For example, take a look at our display and you’ll see a diagram of your electrical system that changes in real time (like the newer corporate jets). Since everything in your plane is electric, we believe it’s important that you have a clear picture of what’s going on with the electrical system. Alternatively, you can decipher a bunch of gauges, recall from memory your old wiring diagrams, and try and diagnose problems by interpolation. Kind of like a VOR needle vs a moving map, eh?

Anyway, that went on a lot longer than I anticipated. Hope you find it useful.

marcausman · Post by **marcausman** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:30 pm

Hi Paul,

Were you one of the folks who wandered by during a demo? That was the proof-of-concept you saw, and we've posted some info about it on the forums on our web site. Glad you had a chance to see it. FWIW, the plane is now painted and looks a zillion times better.

I agree with you that giving up control to the computer is scary. As much of a techie as I am, I'm still a control freak like most pilots. I won't go into lots of detail here because details are on the web site, but I did want to mention that your concern was a major part of the design process. I would argue that the system gives you MORE control than you have with a traditional system, not less. You can turn EACH electrical device on and off 1) by Modes as you configure it, 2) using the switches on the switch panel, 3) turning things on and off using the soft keys, 4) using external switches if you want to add those too.

We've also tried to address failure modes by adding Override circuits and isolating functions so that if one fails other things will likely continue to work. More details on the web about those features.

I think your concerns are very valid and I wanted to let you know we've spent a lot of time addressing those as best as we're able.

smithhb · Post by **smithhb** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:32 pm

Marc,

Thank you for participating in the "REAL" RV Forum.

Please feel free to correct any of my misinterpretations.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:59 pm

Hey Marc! Good to see that you found your way here!

Thank you for answering my 390 questions too!

I am interested in your product, but have so many questions about it and I don't know where to start!

The "thing" is, most people don't understand the concept or the problem that it addresses.

Getting the reason for the change in methodology (from switches to solid state) into a practical explanation is critical for your success. This can be done by getting the product into the hands of the end user and having them fall in love with it or doing ALOT of explanation. Perhaps .ppt demos or flash video would be a good start?

Without knowing what it does, people don't know wht they need it. We kinda have an idea of the functions, but it does it so uniquely, it is kinda scary. I guess we don't know... what we don't know. Therefore, we don't know the questions to ask!

See where I am coming from?

I like the sounds of it, but need to know more!

Thanks for participating!

CJ

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Vertical Power?

Vertical Power?

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