Deep Throat (yoke, that is...)
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Deep Throat (yoke, that is...)
I just put some loot down on a 4" yoke from US Tool and an adjustable set holder. Kit and kaboodle, $300!!!
I bought my US tool 114C Pneu Squeeze and have been living with an fixed set and standard reach set holder for too long.
I have some regrets about the US Tool squeezeer. It seems to be somewhat proprietary. The Avery adjustable had to be modified by me, and it still didn't work that well.
That is why I paid for the US Tool OEM stuff.
I can't wait for it to get here! I will letcha know how it works!
CJ
I bought my US tool 114C Pneu Squeeze and have been living with an fixed set and standard reach set holder for too long.
I have some regrets about the US Tool squeezeer. It seems to be somewhat proprietary. The Avery adjustable had to be modified by me, and it still didn't work that well.
That is why I paid for the US Tool OEM stuff.
I can't wait for it to get here! I will letcha know how it works!
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
This picture was taken back when my pneumatic sqeezer actually worked!
I guess it still works witht he little yoke, but when I installed my new parts... KABOOM!
The adjustable set snapped like a TWIG! I know that it was installed correctly. The only thing I can imagine is that there are 2 prevailing internal designs and the one that I have is not compatible with the adjustable set.
The .pdf on the US Tool website shows 2 different internals.
Anyways, I am shipping that out tomorrow and US Tool is fluffing and buffing it for free!
It isn't even gone yet and I miss it!
CJ
I guess it still works witht he little yoke, but when I installed my new parts... KABOOM!
The adjustable set snapped like a TWIG! I know that it was installed correctly. The only thing I can imagine is that there are 2 prevailing internal designs and the one that I have is not compatible with the adjustable set.
The .pdf on the US Tool website shows 2 different internals.
Anyways, I am shipping that out tomorrow and US Tool is fluffing and buffing it for free!
It isn't even gone yet and I miss it!
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
-
- Chief Rivet Banger
- Posts: 4013
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Ah, so now you have to squeeze 'em like a real man? Funny how a big buff guy building a real airplane (little wheel in back) whines when he looses his gurly air squeezah.
http://www.rivetbangers.com - Now integrating web and mail!
Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl
Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Adjustable Squeezer Yokes (and Quick Change Yoke Pins)
Thank you. You just described perfectly why we do not offer adjustable set holders for pneumatic squeezers. It is also the same reason we do not offer quick-change yoke pins for pneumatic squeezers. These are both a joke. When you build an airplane some things just have to be done the old fashion way -- with shims or with a rivet gun and bucking bar. Glenna -- www.planetools.com or blog at http://planetools.blogspot.com.
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Well, Glenna...
The plot just thickened. Last night I got a phone call from US Tools and they said that this model will not accept either a bigger yoke OR an adjustable set. I needed to upgrade to their new style squeezer and they had no trade in/upgrade path for me. I told them that I felt orphaned. They didn't care!
I am slightly aggravated, and will not put them high on my list of vendors.
Wicked Stick has an adjustable set on his pneu squeeze and it works like a champ!
The pins you speak of seem a bit flimsy to me and I do agree that it isn't really hard to spin the nuts off and swap a yoke.
What is wrong with the adjustable set if it works adequately?
CJ
The plot just thickened. Last night I got a phone call from US Tools and they said that this model will not accept either a bigger yoke OR an adjustable set. I needed to upgrade to their new style squeezer and they had no trade in/upgrade path for me. I told them that I felt orphaned. They didn't care!
I am slightly aggravated, and will not put them high on my list of vendors.
Wicked Stick has an adjustable set on his pneu squeeze and it works like a champ!
The pins you speak of seem a bit flimsy to me and I do agree that it isn't really hard to spin the nuts off and swap a yoke.
What is wrong with the adjustable set if it works adequately?
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Squeezers, Yokes, etc.
It's not often that we post directly into different user groups. However, one of our customers suggested we look at the thread on pneumatic squeezers, yokes, etc. What we're posting is factual in nature, so we're going to try to omit any personal opinions, vague generalizations, misinformation, disinformation, and baseless "jokes" comments.
The current version(s) of the CP-214 pneumatic squeezer have been produced for over 50 years by a number of different companies. Now they're also being produced offshore. There are numerous "variations" to the different models, even by the same manufacturer. However, one thing ALL models have in common (or maybe SHOULD have in common) is the yoke bolt pattern. Therefore, yokes manufactured by any company should fit ALL the squeezers on the market.
As yokes increase in Reach, they generally require more material for stiffness, i.e., so they don't flex. Therefore, you will typically see "taller" bases requiring longer set holders once you move into the 4" reach and above for portable yokes, i.e., not bench mounted. Depending on the design, the taller base may interfere with the standard bearing cover plate on top of the squeezer. The solution is a shorter bearing cover plate. A shorter bearing cover plate can also be used with any of the standard yokes.
Yokes are designed to bolt into the steel sideplates of the pneumatic squeezer. Bolting the yokes in provides additional rigidity, ensures correct alignment with the set holder and cam, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, prevents the yoke from rotating when applying pressure to the rivet.
Think about it. Every time you squeeze a rivet, you're applying 3,000 lbs. of pressure to the yoke. Quick change pins don't provide a high tolerance fit. They are also made out of softer material than the Grade 8 bolts generally used. As pressure is applied to the top of the yoke, the yoke will rotate around those quick change pins ever so slightly. As time goes on, you will generally find that the quick change pins become warped, difficult to get out, and you can see distortion on the shop head of the rivet. That distortion can either be from a yoke flexing or rotating before flexing.
Adjustable set holders are not standard equipment from any manufacturer for pneumatic squeezers. However, different variation have been in use for years, each made by a manufacturer to fit their particular squeezer.
The biggest problem with the two most popular adjustable set holders currently on the market is that the shaft is female threaded. Their walls are approximately 1/32" thick and they are prone to compression problems. Using the proper materials and heat treating those materials properly can also be a problem. Suffice it to say that if the heat treat is too high the material becomes harder, but more brittle and prone to snapping under compression loads. If you don't have enough threads holding (shaft is over-extended), you can also strip out the threads at the end of the shaft travel. That is why some adjustable set holders are advertised only for use with yokes that have a 1" base.
We originally put over 50 hours of engineering time into designing our adjustable set holder. It worked on every single pneumatic squeezer that we could find and test it on. Then we found out that Chicago Pneumatic had, at some point in time, changed their castings. After putting in another 60+ hours of engineering and testing, including sawing pneumatic squeezers in half, we ended up making some significant design changes to accomodate casting differences of .020" or less. Bear in mind, that out of all the adjustable set holders we've sold, including those to various aerospace manufacturing companies, we've only had 3 of them returned. This variance we discovered may only affect 10% of the squeezers on the market, but we felt it had to be addressed, and we did so. In the long-term we may discover other variances or problems and address them accordingly. Nothing's perfect in life, but you'd be surprised how hard most people work to do the right thing.
Ok, we can't resist -
One of the nice things about building an experimental aircraft is that each individual can do it "their way". However, having factual knowledge of a process can only serve to help individuals make better informed decisions. Demeaning and flaming serves no constructive purpose - it's just character assination. As a tool company, we have a responsibility to provide the best service we can to our customers. Individuals would seem to have the responsibility to educate themselves so they can make the best decision they can on what's right for them. Doing otherwise, by either party, and people have a legitimate right to question what the agenda is.
Thank you for your patience in reading this long post. Hopefully it will help someone now, or in the future.
Fred W. Kunkel
CLEAR AIR
www.clearairtools.com
The current version(s) of the CP-214 pneumatic squeezer have been produced for over 50 years by a number of different companies. Now they're also being produced offshore. There are numerous "variations" to the different models, even by the same manufacturer. However, one thing ALL models have in common (or maybe SHOULD have in common) is the yoke bolt pattern. Therefore, yokes manufactured by any company should fit ALL the squeezers on the market.
As yokes increase in Reach, they generally require more material for stiffness, i.e., so they don't flex. Therefore, you will typically see "taller" bases requiring longer set holders once you move into the 4" reach and above for portable yokes, i.e., not bench mounted. Depending on the design, the taller base may interfere with the standard bearing cover plate on top of the squeezer. The solution is a shorter bearing cover plate. A shorter bearing cover plate can also be used with any of the standard yokes.
Yokes are designed to bolt into the steel sideplates of the pneumatic squeezer. Bolting the yokes in provides additional rigidity, ensures correct alignment with the set holder and cam, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, prevents the yoke from rotating when applying pressure to the rivet.
Think about it. Every time you squeeze a rivet, you're applying 3,000 lbs. of pressure to the yoke. Quick change pins don't provide a high tolerance fit. They are also made out of softer material than the Grade 8 bolts generally used. As pressure is applied to the top of the yoke, the yoke will rotate around those quick change pins ever so slightly. As time goes on, you will generally find that the quick change pins become warped, difficult to get out, and you can see distortion on the shop head of the rivet. That distortion can either be from a yoke flexing or rotating before flexing.
Adjustable set holders are not standard equipment from any manufacturer for pneumatic squeezers. However, different variation have been in use for years, each made by a manufacturer to fit their particular squeezer.
The biggest problem with the two most popular adjustable set holders currently on the market is that the shaft is female threaded. Their walls are approximately 1/32" thick and they are prone to compression problems. Using the proper materials and heat treating those materials properly can also be a problem. Suffice it to say that if the heat treat is too high the material becomes harder, but more brittle and prone to snapping under compression loads. If you don't have enough threads holding (shaft is over-extended), you can also strip out the threads at the end of the shaft travel. That is why some adjustable set holders are advertised only for use with yokes that have a 1" base.
We originally put over 50 hours of engineering time into designing our adjustable set holder. It worked on every single pneumatic squeezer that we could find and test it on. Then we found out that Chicago Pneumatic had, at some point in time, changed their castings. After putting in another 60+ hours of engineering and testing, including sawing pneumatic squeezers in half, we ended up making some significant design changes to accomodate casting differences of .020" or less. Bear in mind, that out of all the adjustable set holders we've sold, including those to various aerospace manufacturing companies, we've only had 3 of them returned. This variance we discovered may only affect 10% of the squeezers on the market, but we felt it had to be addressed, and we did so. In the long-term we may discover other variances or problems and address them accordingly. Nothing's perfect in life, but you'd be surprised how hard most people work to do the right thing.
Ok, we can't resist -
One of the nice things about building an experimental aircraft is that each individual can do it "their way". However, having factual knowledge of a process can only serve to help individuals make better informed decisions. Demeaning and flaming serves no constructive purpose - it's just character assination. As a tool company, we have a responsibility to provide the best service we can to our customers. Individuals would seem to have the responsibility to educate themselves so they can make the best decision they can on what's right for them. Doing otherwise, by either party, and people have a legitimate right to question what the agenda is.
Thank you for your patience in reading this long post. Hopefully it will help someone now, or in the future.
Fred W. Kunkel
CLEAR AIR
www.clearairtools.com
-
- Chief Rivet Banger
- Posts: 4013
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:40 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Thanx for the information Fred! As you know vendors are definately encouraged to participate here as the information is usually always beneficial and good for the builders themselves.
Just a reiteration to everyone that "flaming" and such is not tolerated here outside of the normal ribbing between members and we plan on keeping it that way. I didn't read anything in the above that raised my ire, just differing opinions, but as usual lets make sure we keep it civil.
Thanx
-- Spike
Just a reiteration to everyone that "flaming" and such is not tolerated here outside of the normal ribbing between members and we plan on keeping it that way. I didn't read anything in the above that raised my ire, just differing opinions, but as usual lets make sure we keep it civil.
Thanx
-- Spike
http://www.rivetbangers.com - Now integrating web and mail!
Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl
Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Hi Fred,
Glad you are checking in. About 2 years ago, I bought a 3X gun from you.
Since then I have used different guns and all my friends say that the 3X you sold me is more like a 4X. I have purchased a 2X from someone else and use it as my primary gun. I use the one you sold me for driving loooong 1/8" rivets only.
There are no marks on the gun saying 2X, 3X or 4x. It is difficult to determine the BPM with any accurate measure. Without any of these indications all I can say is it is VERY slow and hits HARD even on low pressure.
Who says a gun is an anythingX anyways?
CJ
Glad you are checking in. About 2 years ago, I bought a 3X gun from you.
Since then I have used different guns and all my friends say that the 3X you sold me is more like a 4X. I have purchased a 2X from someone else and use it as my primary gun. I use the one you sold me for driving loooong 1/8" rivets only.
There are no marks on the gun saying 2X, 3X or 4x. It is difficult to determine the BPM with any accurate measure. Without any of these indications all I can say is it is VERY slow and hits HARD even on low pressure.
Who says a gun is an anythingX anyways?
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM
Taildraggers RULE!spike wrote:Just a reiteration to everyone that "flaming" and such is not tolerated here outside of the normal ribbing between members and we plan on keeping it that way.
CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!
- captain_john
- Sparky
- Posts: 5880
- Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
- Location: KPYM