Certified paint Shop

A place to discuss your primer & paint choices including using paint shops or doing it yourself.
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N537TM
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Certified paint Shop

Post by N537TM »

Easy Question ..... Easy answer????

Do I need to use a FAA Certified paint shop for painting My RV7? Also if I want to have stripes put on by another Auto Detailer, do they need to be a FAA shop?

If ... NO .... What FAA / EAA / AOPA / FAR / VAN's document can I show these shops so they can see that they don't need to be FAA Certified?

Lost n RV 7 Heaven......

Mike

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Easy answers are no, no, and I don't know.

YOU can paint your RV, so can my neighbor, so can the auto repair shop, so can an overpriced certified paint shop. ANYBODY can paint experimental. This RV-3 was painted with paint rollers, and house paint!!

Image

I don't know that a paint shop needs to see any documentation for painting airplanes or parts. They either will or they won't. I have a friend that owns a body shop, is a pilot, and owns a Bonanza. He won't paint airplanes even though he could do a fantastic job!

It's up to the shop, but anybody can paint 'em. 8)
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TomNativeNewYorker
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Re: Certified paint Shop

Post by TomNativeNewYorker »

N537TM wrote:
If ... NO .... What FAA / EAA / AOPA / FAR / VAN's document can I show these shops so they can see that they don't need to be FAA Certified?
Image

Spike
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Post by Spike »

No.
No.

Check out FARs.
Part 43 covers maintenance of aircraft. Here is 43.1 which covers applicability.
§ 43.1 Applicability.
top

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section, this part prescribes rules governing the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration of any—

(1) Aircraft having a U.S. airworthiness certificate;

(2) Foreign-registered civil aircraft used in common carriage or carriage of mail under the provisions of Part 121 or 135 of this chapter; and

(3) Airframe, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, and component parts of such aircraft.

(b) This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.

(c) This part applies to all life-limited parts that are removed from a type certificated product, segregated, or controlled as provided in §43.10.

(d) This part applies to any aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category except:

(1) The repair or alteration form specified in §§43.5(b) and 43.9(d) is not required to be completed for products not produced under an FAA approval;

(2) Major repairs and major alterations for products not produced under an FAA approval are not required to be recorded in accordance with appendix B of this part; and

(3) The listing of major alterations and major repairs specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of appendix A of this part is not applicable to products not produced under an FAA approval.

[Doc. No. 1993, 29 FR 5451, Apr. 23, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 43–23, 47 FR 41084, Sept. 16, 1982; Amdt. 43–37, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 43–38, 67 FR 2109, Jan. 15, 2002; Amdt. 43–39, 69 FR 44863, July 27, 2004]
Followed by Part 43.4 which describes who can perform the maintenace.
§ 43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations.
top

(a) Except as provided in this section and §43.17, no person may maintain, rebuild, alter, or perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part to which this part applies. Those items, the performance of which is a major alteration, a major repair, or preventive maintenance, are listed in appendix A.

(b) The holder of a mechanic certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 65 of this chapter.

(c) The holder of a repairman certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in part 65 of this chapter.

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.

(e) The holder of a repair station certificate may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 145 of this chapter.

(f) The holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate issued under Part 121 or 135, may perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations as provided in Part 121 or 135.

(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.

(h) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (g) of this section, the Administrator may approve a certificate holder under Part 135 of this chapter, operating rotorcraft in a remote area, to allow a pilot to perform specific preventive maintenance items provided—

(1) The items of preventive maintenance are a result of a known or suspected mechanical difficulty or malfunction that occurred en route to or in a remote area;

(2) The pilot has satisfactorily completed an approved training program and is authorized in writing by the certificate holder for each item of preventive maintenance that the pilot is authorized to perform;

(3) There is no certificated mechanic available to perform preventive maintenance;

(4) The certificate holder has procedures to evaluate the accomplishment of a preventive maintenance item that requires a decision concerning the airworthiness of the rotorcraft; and

(5) The items of preventive maintenance authorized by this section are those listed in paragraph (c) of appendix A of this part.

(i) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (g) of this section, in accordance with an approval issued to the holder of a certificate issued under part 135 of this chapter, a pilot of an aircraft type-certificated for 9 or fewer passenger seats, excluding any pilot seat, may perform the removal and reinstallation of approved aircraft cabin seats, approved cabin-mounted stretchers, and when no tools are required, approved cabin-mounted medical oxygen bottles, provided—

(1) The pilot has satisfactorily completed an approved training program and is authorized in writing by the certificate holder to perform each task; and

(2) The certificate holder has written procedures available to the pilot to evaluate the accomplishment of the task.

(j) A manufacturer may—

(1) Rebuild or alter any aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance manufactured by him under a type or production certificate;

(2) Rebuild or alter any appliance or part of aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, or appliances manufactured by him under a Technical Standard Order Authorization, an FAA-Parts Manufacturer Approval, or Product and Process Specification issued by the Administrator; and

(3) Perform any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter on aircraft it manufacturers, while currently operating under a production certificate or under a currently approved production inspection system for such aircraft.

[Doc. No. 1993, 29 FR 5451, Apr. 23, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 43–4, 31 FR 5249, Apr. 1, 1966; Amdt. 43–23, 47 FR 41084, Sept. 16, 1982; Amdt. 43–25, 51 FR 40702, Nov. 7, 1986; Amdt. 43–36, 61 FR 19501, May 1, 1996; Amdt. 43–37, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001; Amdt. 43–39, 69 FR 44863, July 27, 2004]
But remember, 43.1(b) excludes experimental. So this means that anyone can maintain or work on an experimental aircraft.
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dons
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Post by dons »

I think the document Tom pointed out would be the most effective :lol:
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N537TM
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Post by N537TM »

The FAR stuff is Fantastic. ..... Thanks Spike


I'm going to do the painting, white on top Blue on the bottom
At the line where they meet. I'm trying to get a local Truck Graphics shop
to make me a swoopy colored Vinyl stripe for the Fuze side another for the wings and the vert and horz tail and install it...

They asked if they needed to be FAA Approved...

I'll send em the para from the FAR's.. se what they say

Yep .... they all like Tom's solution .... problem is my wife does not!!!

THANKS GUY'S ... I'll let ya know

Mike

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jim_geo
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Post by jim_geo »

NO! Not anyone can maintain an experimental. You as the builder who have been given a repairman cert. by the FAA can maintain your own home built. If you were a non builder that owns an experimental then you would have to have an A&P maintain your plane or work a deal with the original holder of the cert. to do the maintenance. The cert. doesn't transfer. As far as painting, anyone can paint your plane but you will have to do the weight and balance after it's finished being painted.

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Post by ptrotter »

jim_geo wrote:NO! Not anyone can maintain an experimental. You as the builder who have been given a repairman cert. by the FAA can maintain your own home built. If you were a non builder that owns an experimental then you would have to have an A&P maintain your plane or work a deal with the original holder of the cert. to do the maintenance. The cert. doesn't transfer. As far as painting, anyone can paint your plane but you will have to do the weight and balance after it's finished being painted.
Jim,

This is not correct. Anybody can work on an experimental, even if they did not build it. If you built it and have the repaiman's certificate, then you can also sign off on the annual condition inspection. If you did not build it, or if you did and did not get the repairman's certificate, you can still do all the work, but you must have the annual condition inspection signed off by an A&P. That A&P does not need to be an IA. The issue you may run into is finding an A&P that will sign off the inspection without doing the work, however it is not required that an A&P actually do the work.
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Post by Spike »

jim_geo wrote:NO! Not anyone can maintain an experimental. You as the builder who have been given a repairman cert. by the FAA can maintain your own home built. If you were a non builder that owns an experimental then you would have to have an A&P maintain your plane or work a deal with the original holder of the cert. to do the maintenance. The cert. doesn't transfer. As far as painting, anyone can paint your plane but you will have to do the weight and balance after it's finished being painted.
Sorry Jim, but I believe you to be incorrect. Anyone can work on one. I can work on yours, you can work on mine. The repariman's certificate does not apply here. The repairman's certificate really only applies to doing the condition inspection. Remember, as we saw above, experimental amatuer built is explicitly excluded from Part 43.

However, Part 91.409 speaks to annual inspections. Here is a snippet of it:

§ 91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; or

(2) An inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

No inspection performed under paragraph (b) of this section may be substituted for any inspection required by this paragraph unless it is performed by a person authorized to perform annual inspections and is entered as an “annual” inspection in the required maintenance records.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.
So there is the basis for the annual and 100 hour inspections. To continue this section, subpart (c) has some exceptions.
(c) Paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section do not apply to—

(1) An aircraft that carries a special flight permit, a current experimental certificate, or a light-sport or provisional airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft inspected in accordance with an approved aircraft inspection program under part 125 or 135 of this chapter and so identified by the registration number in the operations specifications of the certificate holder having the approved inspection program;

(3) An aircraft subject to the requirements of paragraph (d) or (e) of this section; or

(4) Turbine-powered rotorcraft when the operator elects to inspect that rotorcraft in accordance with paragraph (e) of this section.
So if experimental aircraft dont have to have annual inspections, where is the FAR that requires them to have "condition inspections?" I dont believe that there are any. This is usually a stipulation provided in the operating limitations give to the aircraft when it receives its certificate.

If we look at FAA order 8130.2(F), which is the guidance document that the FAA has handed down to be used in such things as certificating aircraft, etc., it sheds some light . Specifically:

Section 9: Experimental Amateur-built Airworthiness Certifications
Paragraph 153: Issuance of Experimental Amatuer-Built Operating Limitations


This is a long paragraph so Ive only included some interesting aspects of it:
a. Operating limitations must be designed to fit the specific situation encountered. The ASI may impose any additional limitations deemed necessary in the interest of safety. The ASI and/or designee must review each imposed operating limitation with the applicant to ensure that the operating limitations are understood by the applicant.

b. The following operating limitations shall be prescribed to experimental amateur-built aircraft:
What follows in the paragraph is a list of roughly 28 limitations to be placed on experimental homebuilt aircraft. Ive listed the important ones below.

(22) No person must operate this aircraft unless within the preceding 12 calendar months it has had a condition inspection performed in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to part 43, or other FAA-approved programs, and was found to be in a condition for safe operation. As part of the condition inspection, cockpit instruments must be appropriately marked and needed placards installed in accordance with § 91.9. In addition, system-essential controls must be in good condition, securely mounted, clearly marked, and provide for ease of operation. This inspection will be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records.

...

(26) An experimental aircraft builder certificated as a repairman for this aircraft under § 65.104 or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated mechanic may perform the condition inspection required by these operating limitations.
It appears that the condition inspection & who can do them are not given as an FAR, but given in the operating limitations of the aircraft at the time it is certificated. This is the only place where the requirement to hold the repairmen's certificate (or A&P) is given with respect to experimental amatuer built. As we saw earlier in the thread, experimental amatuer built aircraft are explicitly exempted from part 43 of the FAR's which regulate the maintenance of aircraft and who can do them.

Aha, but what about the phrase "performed in accordance with the scope and detail of appendix D to part 43" in the operating limitations regarding the condition inspection? Well, if you look at appendix D of part 43 you will see that it is a list of assemblies, equipment, & systems to be inspected during an annual inspection.

Make sense?

John
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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

Ayup... what they said, Jim.

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JohnR
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Re: Certified paint Shop

Post by JohnR »

TomNativeNewYorker wrote:
N537TM wrote:
If ... NO .... What FAA / EAA / AOPA / FAR / VAN's document can I show these shops so they can see that they don't need to be FAA Certified?
Image
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by jim_geo »

Well! I guess I've been told. I did a poor job of explaining what I meant. Long story short though. Who ever does the work the person holding the repairman cert. or an A&P has to sign that work off. You can't just blow on a paint job and start flying someone qualified has to do a weight and balance. That has to be entered into the log book. Who ever turns the wrench or blows on the paint doesn't matter so long as you the guy who holds the repairman certificate will stand behind that work.

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Post by captain_john »

...ahhh well, Jim. Not really. All you need the A&P for is major mods and annuals.

You still can do all your own work and enter it into the logbook yourself.

Does this help?

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Post by Spike »

captain_john wrote:...ahhh well, Jim. Not really. All you need the A&P for is major mods and annuals.

You still can do all your own work and enter it into the logbook yourself.
Actually I would take some exception to this as well. I dont' believe that you need a certificate to do major mods. Only the condition inspection. Major mods will put the plane back into a test phase whose length is determined by your local FSDO, but I dont believe any major mod needs a certificate holder sign off.
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