This is a forum to ask questions regarding the different models of Vans Aircraft. If you are having problems deciding which one to build, this is the place to go.
I'm a newbie to the aviation world and am working on my pilot's license. I'm considering an RV-12, but the price is a little uncomfortable ($62,000). $62,000 and I have to build it!! The "ready to fly" LSA's are well over $100,000 and new certified aircraft are $250,000 and up. I'm not interested in the purchase of a 40 year old airplane.
I understand you can build a plane from plans, from raw materials, with a VW engine for the cost of a modest car, but the finished product isn't very practical. Why does everything in aviation have to be so expensive? It seems that the aviation industry doesn't want the "average" consumer to participate.
Last edited by Rod on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cost is relative. have you priced anything major these days? Pick any mechanized hobby and do a cost comparison, you'll be enlightened.
I work at a small Dam and have many boater/camper friends say "oh, you're a pilot with an airplane, you must be loaded"
My response: my brand new 200mph airplane is $80000, I can fly to Oregon coast in under 4hrs for a beach get away. You on the other hand, drove an hour in a $35000 truck pulling a $25000 fifth wheel camper and your wife driving her 2 yr old SUV pulling a $45000 ski boat all to spend the weekend just like you did last weekend.
Thanks for the reply! True; but I don't understand how something that weighs 740 lbs(?), with a 100 hp engine, can cost so much. In many parts of the country you can buy a small home for $62,000. Why can't someone develop a ready to fly airplane for the cost of a modest car. I'm sure the research, development, and liability issues are the same for both industries and there is far less material in these planes.
Last edited by Rod on Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Supply and demand, also economy of scale are a big reason for the cost inequality. I think last year there were something like 1000 new aircraft sold in all of US. The are single car dealers that sell that many units PER month.
Make it reasonably affordable and demand will come rapidly. With the future demise of 100LL fuel and the high cost of these planes (even in kit form), I don't hold much hope for the future of General Aviation. Most people don't have that kind of disposable income.
Just a thought. Maybe the skies shouldn't be filled with aircraft; like bumper to bumper cars on a freeway.
Sheesh! Heavy first topic Rod! Welcome to Rivetbangers!
Brian is right...it's all about choices. I work three jobs to afford my flying addiction, and my airplane isn't painted nice and pretty like Brian's award winner yet, but I chose to make the dollars go where I want them to, and work however much I need to go keep my hobby afloat.
My wife and I drive older, paid for vehicles, and working extra makes the difference.
If RV's aren't the ticket for you, check out the new Thatcher CX5 that is coming out...nice two place airplane that moves along reasonably quick.
Thank you for the reply Chad. I'm new to this and the reality of this "hobby" is starting to set in. Thank you for the additional information regarding the other options. It looks like I have a lot of reading to do on this website.
P.S. Does anyone in the United States make an engine that is comparable to the Rotax, that uses automobile grade gasoline, suitable for an aviation application, that is competitively priced.
Last edited by Rod on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rod wrote:Make it reasonably affordable and demand will come rapidly.
...
for the cost of a modest car
This will come across harsh because of the bluntness, but harshness is not what I have in my heart ...
What is "reasonably affordable" and what is a "modest car"? Is that reasonable for you, reasonable for me, or is that reasonable for Mr. Trump? I hear lots of people talk about the price of flying and how expensive it is. What I rarely ever hear is people say flying is expensive, and I can't afford it, therefore I will work harder to make that happen. Super Kudos to Chad (since he has been open about it) who has said that he wants to fly and as such will work his @rse off to make it happen.
It is expensive to fly, yes. It is also expensive to boat, golf, attend NFL games, etc. Really the only relevant question is 'How bad do you want it?' We really have the ability to do just about anything we want (especially in the USA) and all we have to do is work for it and make wise decisions. Really, the cost of flying doesn't so much represent a barrier to entry but rather a minimum level commitment required.
Spike
http://www.rivetbangers.com - Now integrating web and mail!
Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl
If you must have an RV, you must be willing to prioritize, sacrifice, and really watch your pennies. An RV can be built fairly inexpensively if you can rebuild your own engine, scrounge for parts, etc. An RV-12, not so much. If you just want to get in the air there are other affordable kits out there. Do some research and find out what you can afford.
You can click on my web link to see what my suggestion would be.
Scott VanArtsdalen
Token Heretic
Nirvana Rodeo / Dudek Universal
S-6ES N612SV - GONE but not forgotten
RV-4 N311SV - SOLD
Thanks for the reply Spike. It was my understanding that the basic premise for the Sport Pilot and LSA was to make it financially easier to attract more pilots to a dwindling aviation market. Cessna's LSA Skycatcher is being manufactured in China. The average Chinese worker makes $2.00 a day. Cessna quotes $130,000 for a "typically equipped" plane. What's their profit margin? It really is all about greed. Or do they consider that just good business?
I have one job that I work about 55 hours a week. I own my home, have two cars that are paid for, and am essentially debt free. I count my pennies, put my daughter through college and save aggressively for retirement. I'm not Donald Trump, but I made $145,000 last year. I suppose I could work harder and get another job, but I don't know where I will find the time to build one of these kit planes. I will keep the faith and try to make plane ownership a reality.
Last edited by Rod on Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Rod, first of all, welcome to Rivetbangers! You'll find that this is an incredible community, and the guys who hang out here are top notch.
I thought I would chime in here as well. I know several people who have built an RV for around half the price quoted for the RV-12 (well, maybe a little more than half... around $40K). It can be done if you really shop around for everything, take your time, start with a good used engine, and put in a modest panel to start with. I've been shocked at times, too, at the price of everything aviation related. But it's the same with marine stuff, or some other hobbies, too. I really don't think it's all about greed. The market for aviation stuff just isn't big enough like the auto parts market. The economies of scale aren't there. The automation isn't there either. Factory made or experimental, fact is most airplanes are essentially hand made piece by piece.
The really great thing about building an RV is that you don't have to come up with all the money at once. I've paid cash along the way for each sub-kit, and I don't owe a dime on my project at this point. A finished RV will hold it's value very well, too. The economy hurt me hard a couple years ago and I'm still building my business back up, and as a result I had to wait a few months longer than normal to order my finish kit for my project. It's still a stretch, but I don't spend money on much of anything else. I still don't know how I'm going to come up with the money for an engine or a panel, but I'll figure out a way somewhere, some how.
Since you were honest and open with us about your income, I'll be honest about mine. I made less than 1/3 your income last year and I've never made 6 figures in my life. My hunch is, there are more guys around here closer to my end of the pay scale than there are to yours. None of us know the load you're carrying, though, so it's all relative I suppose. The bottom line is, if you can just figure out a way to get started and if you want it bad enough, you can find a way to make it happen. The pieces will fall in place. Don't give up!
I thought I'd add another post, since I just found a very interesting thread on this very subject over on the other forum. It's a very interesting discussion. Check it out!
Rod wrote:T.......$145,000 last year. ............
You can do it, Just need to find the right path. There are LSA's out there that can be built for $50K BRAND NEW everything. Take a look at Scott V's S-6 Rans . If you shop around you can build an RV for $40K like Bruce says. So for the cost of a fancy SUV or ski boat(which many folks own) you can be flying 4 fun.
Since we're in almost full disclosure here. I'm betting you're in a bracket mostly by yourself on Rivetbangers. Our household income is <1/2 of yours.
BTW-one example.... how much did you spend on cable TV packages last yr? mine=$0.
You guys are making it sound more tangible after all. I suppose my issue is this: You go down to your local car/boat dealership and pay $62,000 for a new car/boat. Instead of driving it away, they tell you it will arrive at your home in several large crates (an additional $2,500 shipping), comprised of thousands of small parts, in about 3-4 months. All you have to do is follow the beautiful computer generated instructions, pull the parts out of the box and bolt them together with simple hand tools. In 3-10 years you will be able to drive your "new" car/boat. Assuming, of course, you did everything correctly. I understand some of you enjoy the building process, but would you accept this. Of course not. But that's what the kit manufacturer expects you to do. They will respond that you can buy a fly-away for $110,000 +, so the kit is a great bargain. I'll keep you guys up to date as the situation continues to develop and I make my final purchase decision. I do appreciate the helpful links. Brian, What is there to watch on T.V.? American Idol?!!
Last edited by Rod on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
I do want to point out something that I do tend to preach a bit. Building because its cheaper than buying can be a real recipe for failure. That motivation will falter quickly when things get difficult.
You guys are making it sound more tangible after all. I suppose my issue is this: You go down to your local car/boat dealership and pay $62,000 for a new car/boat. Instead of driving it away, they tell you it will arrive at your home in several large crates, comprised of thousands of small parts, in about 3-4 months. All you have to do is follow the beautiful computer generated instructions, pull the parts out of the box and bolt them together. In 3-4 years you will be able to drive your "new" car/boat. Assuming, of course, you did everything correctly. I understand some of you enjoy the building process, but would you except this. Of course not. But that's what the kit manufacturer expects you to do. They will respond that you can buy a fly-away for $110,000 +, so the kit is a great bargain. I'll keep you guys up to date as the situation continues to develop and I make my final purchase decision. I do appreciate the helpful links. P.S. What is there to watch on T.V.? American Idol?!! rivetbangers.com - Discussion topic http://www.rivetbangers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=36736#36736
Welcome to Rivet Bangers! As Spike says building an RV is not for everyone and is not necessarly the cheapest way to fly no matter whether you want an RV 12 or the RV 10 or any of the other models. It took me 10 years and 3 days to build an Quickbuild RV-6A with an overhauled O-320 160HP. It has a metal fixed pitch prop and iwith custom paint job about $60,000. It is flying and we have 128 hours on it since first flight on 5/9/09. I have sweat equity in the rebuild of the engine and our top salary before reitrement was about half of yours. You can probably buy a built RV in good shape for about what I have in my airplane. I knew I wanted an RV before I could afford flight lessons due to helping with three kids in college. The comptoller at our house said no flying lessons until the last one graduates from college! A wise decsion and one I don't regret. Each person has to decide what is best for themselves and yes it can become discouraging both during flight traing and fuilding an airplane. You needs to do what is best for your famil! Good luck!
Rod wrote:T.......$145,000 last year. ............
You can do it, Just need to find the right path. There are LSA's out there that can be built for $50K BRAND NEW everything. Take a look at Scott V's S-6 Rans . If you shop around you can build an RV for $40K like Bruce says. So for the cost of a fancy SUV or ski boat(which many folks own) you can be flying 4 fun.
Since we're in almost full disclosure here. I'm betting you're in a bracket mostly by yourself on Rivetbangers. Our household income is <1/2 of yours.
BTW-one example.... how much did you spend on cable TV packages last yr? mine=$0.
And for the record I made roughly half what you did last year, and I was able to build my airplane. I made even less money per year when I build the RV-4. It can be done but you have to be willing to sacrifice something. We cancelled TV, take vacations in our pop-up trailer, we don't eat out much, drive old cars (paid for), etc.
BTW, I think the $60,000 new car vs. airplane kit is an apples and alarm clocks comparison. You're not expected to build a new car, you are expected to build a kit plane.
Don't mean to come across harsh, just realistic.
Scott VanArtsdalen
Token Heretic
Nirvana Rodeo / Dudek Universal
S-6ES N612SV - GONE but not forgotten
RV-4 N311SV - SOLD
The purpose of my car/boat analogy was to illustrate that $62,000 is a lot of money; even if the RV-12 was a fly-away airplane. In my 51 years of life I have never given pause in any purchase I made (homes, cars, boats, motorcycles, vacations, etc). I am nervous about making a kit plane purchase. It requires a significant amount of money and a tremendous time commitment.
It's a shame that the aviation industry, for YOU to participate, requires that you give up television, eat out less, drive old cars, take vacations in a pop-up trailer (although, that sounds fun!). This hobby sounds like it controls how you live your life. That is the point; and why general aviation is struggling to survive.
Why is this so expensive that the individuals on this post must make sacrifices, count pennies, work three jobs, and spend 10 years of their lives to try to fulfill a life dream?
Last edited by Rod on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In a nutshell... because it's FUN. You're missing something here that many of us have discovered. Building a kit airplane isn't something you've GOT to do, it's something you GET to do.
I originally started my project as a means-to-an-end. I was thinking just like you... wondering why is aviation so expensive? I'm not one who could sit down and write a check for a brand new airplane and fly it away. And I didn't want a 40-yr old spam can either. Building my own from a kit was the only way I could see of having the aircraft I really wanted at a price I could afford. Sweat equity would be part of the cost of entry into the world of aviation. And I was willing to give up all those things and make those sacrifices in order to realize my dream and make it happen.
But somewhere along the way, a magical thing happened. I found out, much to my delight, that I've never had such a good feeling as this, about a project I've worked on, in my life. I've never done anything quite like this, and it's VERY rewarding. To see this beautiful creation come together like this, and it's the work of your own hands... it's incredible. Yeah, I can't wait until it's flying and the project is finished, but meanwhile I'm having the time of my life. I'm enjoying this journey and I wouldn't trade this experience for anything.
You know what you should do? Attend a workshop and pound some rivets, or put together a Vans toolbox kit. Building isn't for everyone, but you can't know until you give it a whirl. Try it; you just might like it.
CJ
