How do you guys afford this stuff?

This is a forum to ask questions regarding the different models of Vans Aircraft. If you are having problems deciding which one to build, this is the place to go.
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svanarts
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Post by svanarts »

Rod wrote:Scott,

Do you have pictures of your plane? I believe that plane comes in a Dope and Fabric or Dacron Slip option. Which covering did you go with? Obviously, the Coyote is a much slower plane than most of the RV line, but it might be on par with the 12. Any thoughts?

Rod
If you're looking for speed, this plane ain't it. It's a low and slow fun flier. I got the slipon dacron covering because I have chemical allergies that won't let me mess with dopes and glues. I didn't have them before working with fiberglass but there you go.

There's lots of pictures of it here: http://www.airprayer.net
and here: https://picasaweb.google.com/svanarts/R ... directlink

Image
Scott VanArtsdalen
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Post by Rod »

Facial,

It appears that my posts have solicited an emotional response from you. Hopefully, it will lead to fruitful discussions in the future. I probably, at this point, should explain myself a little further. I'm as passionate about aviation as anyone on this website. I have never owned an airplane in my life, but I've been around airplanes most of my adult life. I assisted my friend in the early 80's with the build of a Fisher Barnstormer, designed by Michael Fisher. Another friend of mine built a Turner T-40 and then a Rutan VariEze which I assisted partially in the build. Both of these men wanted me to ultimately buy these planes. Unfortunately, I couldn't fit in any of them. They sold them to somebody else. Both men were true craftsmen and I learned a great deal about wood and composite construction.

This post wasn't about me. It's about the general affordability of aviation in the consumer market and why General Aviation is struggling. It's why EAA introduced/endorsed the Sport Pilot license and the Light Sport Aircraft. It's why they began the Young Eagles program to introduce young people to the world of aviation to hopefully replace the pilots that are dying due to age.

My pilot's lessons are paid for and I'm near completion. With my close friends in aviation, I suppose you could say I have been flying for years. I don't do anything financially that I can't afford. I can afford to write a check for any complete experimental kit, and with the movement of some assets, I could write a check for a Skyhawk. As stated in my previous posts, I would, however, feel very uncomfortable doing that. The value is just not there for me yet. My frustration is with the difficulty of a lot of people who cannot get involved in aviation.

I just learned today that Brad Oliver was selling (sold?) his RV-7 project. It's a shame that after 5-6 years and over 1,000 hours of labor he is having to sell his project due to "time and money" issues. I hope he is able to get a fair price for his investment.

This subject is a "Hard Topic" to address because it is sensitive to so many people and the level of sacrifices of those who are participating. In the end of a homebuilt project you typically hear the builder thanking his wife for her patience, love, understanding, and often her actual assistance in the build. If they are still married (both of my friends lost their marriages due to their obsession to these and future projects and the required financial commitment). As of this writing, there have been over 700 viewings of this topic in just one week. It's that important of a subject to those who are interested in fulfilling their dream of flying.

There is no sense in "beating a dead horse". Keep'em flying! and Good Luck to all on this Post.

Rod
Last edited by Rod on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

facial
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Post by facial »

Rod- no emotional problems here. Just trying to give some advice, unfortunately some don't want to listen.
Your question was... How do you guys afford to do this?
I make far less than you do and i have my own plane which is quite expensive.
Man come on you make 145000 with little debt. their are many people in here that make less then that and we're flying.
Either you want to fly or you don't.

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Brantel
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Post by Brantel »

Rod,

Based on your post listing your financial situation, I would say that you are sitting better than 85% of the people actively participating in experimental aviation.

You just have to decide if it is worth it or not for you. If what you say is true, finances are not your barrier to entry into owning this class of airplane.

Trust me, there are plenty of people in far worse situations owning and flying their homebuilt every chance they get.....

It took me almost 10 years to realize my dream but it did happen! (I have a mortgage, a wife and three young daughters, and a paid for airplane and I don't make 145K/yr)
Brantel (Brian Chesteen),
RV12-IS, #121606, N912BC - Building Now!
RV10, #41942, N????? - Project Sold
RV-7/TU, #72823, N159SB - SOLD

facial
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Post by facial »

Rod no offence but it could be insulting to some in here who make far less than you but find a way. i told you i give up other things and you can buy a nice used rv4 (example) for 45000. your response to me was you must be in a higher income bracket than i because i could not afford that. I make half what you do.
It sounds a little more to me like your searching for reasons not to own your own airplane. And find excuses.
And further more what the hell can you buy nowadays for 45000 anyway.

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

facial wrote:It sounds a little more to me like your searching for reasons not to own your own airplane. And find excuses.
I'm kinda tending to agree with this statement now as well as this thread progresses. I think I already mentioned that I'm in that same group that makes half of what you do, and while we struggle at times to justify owning the 7, I make it happen with some extra effort.

You did ask the question...how to we afford it. We are telling you, and the posts you come back with keep talking about how much money you make, and that you just can't do it...yet. I'd love to see you get in to an RV (built or kit) by writing a check...something that many of us couldn't do...and stick around to tell us about your build. You live once my man...I'm 33 years old, and I wanted to get this off my list early, and am now working hard to pay off student loans and get financially set for retirement...you're well ahead of me, and most of us with your income and little, if any, debt.

BUY A KIT MAN!! 8) :evil: It ain't gonna get any cheaper!! :wink:
Chad Jensen
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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

Rod wrote:.........This post wasn't about me. It's about the general affordability of aviation in the consumer market and why General Aviation is struggling.
..............My frustration is with the difficulty of a lot of people who cannot get involved in aviation. It is not about me.

............ the level of sacrifices of those who are participating. ..........Rod
I don't think aviation is any more expensive than any other hobby. The affordability issue is a myth. "Pilots are a bunch of rich businessmen" that is BS, but marketing has made us elite. Like I said earlier, many people think I'm loaded since I own my own sport plane. but think nothing of $40K worth of Harleys in the garage or trailer full of snowmobiles that get used 8 times/yr.....marketing made us special.

GA is not struggling to recruit young people because of cost. I feel it is due to young people want instant gratification. Many young people don't want to spend the time and effort and money to get what they want. Go to one of the local high schools around here and see some of the nice cars the kids are driving that mommy and daddy bought them to get to Basketball practice, but those same kids don't have jobs.

Getting involved in anything requires priorities and sacrifice. Chad, or Brad or myself have made our priorities and decided we wanted to sacrifice something in order to participate. At this time Brad has re-evaluated and decided aviation is not a good fit, He may be back when it is.

So while this thread is "not about me". It appears it is and building/owning has nothing to do with affordability, but a person's level of priority, commitment and sacrifice.
Brian
Townsend, MT

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Joe Parish
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Post by Joe Parish »

I don't think aviation is any more expensive than any other hobby

I would have to agree with Brian. I have several neighbors that have brand new trucks (40+ thousand) and new ranger boats which are easily 40 -50 thousand. It seems that maybe you do not want to give up some of your lifestyle to get into aviation? Making that kind of money, It should be doable. Plenty of people have stated they do not make half of what you make and are building or flying their own planes. I am currently building while paying off the house(our only debt left) it is not progressing as fast as I would like but right know the house comes first. It all comes down to priorities. My 2cents. Best of luck to you Rod.
Joe
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Post by Rod »

06-11-11

Fullerton Municipal Airport (CA)

100LL - $6.46/GAL (Full Service) :x

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

That's up there...it's been $6.30-6.40 a gallon at my home airport for months now. I don't buy it at home anymore...
Chad Jensen
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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

Rod wrote: ........There is no sense in "beating a dead horse". ....
Rod
06-11-11

Fullerton Municipal Airport (CA)

100LL - $6.46/GAL (Full Service)
guess that horse had a little life left after all. :lol:

BUT if you jump over to Corona you can buy the same fuel for $5.30. of course it is 19miles away. :cry:


BTW, my wife and I will burn over 1000gals this yr in our cars. 1000X$3.75=$3750 in everyday ho hum life. on the flipside, 100LL around here is $4.80gal, $3750/4.80 =781 gal. 781/8.5gph=91hrs of life I enjoy. ...Dang, I'm slacking, I'm hoping to log 100hrs of RV life this yr..... guess I better lean a little more.
Brian
Townsend, MT

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Post by Rod »

Hi Brian,

The "Friendliest Airport in America" (Corona) is supported by state grants and rentals. It used to be self supporting, but now it's having difficulty staying solvent. The City of Corona runs the airport and they are not receiving the money from the state that they were getting in the past. Here in California the state is struggling to stay afloat with the poor economy. I wish I could say that with Corona Airport. December, 2010 the airport was underwater along with 200 aircraft. They have fuel prices that low in the hope that someone will land there.

Brian, you only get 91 hours of life to enjoy? I knew it sounded like you bit off financially more than you could chew.

Rod

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Post by hydroguy2 »

Rod wrote:....You only get 91 hours of life to enjoy? I knew it sounded like you bit off financially more than you could chew.
Rod
Oh gosh! you must have misunderstood. I said the 91 hrs of RV time is life I enjoy. I have plenty of other enjoyable life.....I live in Montana which has lots of LIFE. I make a fraction of your "hey look at how much I make and I'm still bitter about life" salary, but I live quite well thankyou.

I live within my means. Which means I can only fly/participate in 3 Air races, 1 OSH trip and any other XC the wife can think up in a plane I built in my garage.

You going to Oshkosh this year?
How many fly-ins or $100 hamburgers are you doing, where everyone flocks around your plane drooling on it?
How about taking any trips to see the grandkids 2.4hrs by RV vs 7.5 in the car?
or having your wife be the center of attention while dropping off college papers because she has a personal pilot flying her around the country?

YES my life is GOOD!...thank you very much

Life is what you make of it, not what a internet troll from SoCal defines for you......
Brian
Townsend, MT

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Nothing more to add...nice post Brian... 8)
Chad Jensen
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Post by Rod »

You need to calm down Brian. You're beginning to sound a lot like Facial. You guys are too easy. :lol: :lol:

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

Rod, it's hard to tell thru the Internet what kind of guy you are, and being a new member with the majority of your posts in this thread, taking things the wrong way is easy. Simply put, we don't know you. We are all about getting to know new folks, but without having an established online persona here, it's hard.

Your posts do come across as a bit abrasive. Maybe you don't mean them that way, but that is how they are sounding.

I hope you stick around...we just need to get to know you.
Last edited by cjensen on Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chad Jensen
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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

Rod wrote:You need to calm down Brian. You're beginning to sound a lot like Facial. You guys are too easy. :lol: :lol:
I'm calm...and you're right I'm too easy. I should have ignored your "gas price" post above. Typical troll behavior, start a topic then after the dust clears a bit go back in and chum the hole....dang I took the bait.

I guess it boils down to I am passionate about aviation, so it does bother me when people are negative about it. You see the gloom of high prices at fullerton, I see a great opportunity to use a different airport and reward them for their lower prices. Maybe some of these places wouldn't be struggling if folks would embrace this great gift we have in front of us.

Anyway, I'm calm..after all I went flying last night to test some fuel mixture changes I made. came back did 1 real nice 3pt landing, then 1 not quite as nice. Taxi'd back to the hangar and sat around enjoying friends. oh BTW have you seen my hangar that I can't afford....

Image

yep we can complain or do something about it. I found hangar space...premium hangar space for the cost of feeding the cat and taking care of the place while the owner is away. So once again I am calm and blessed. :)
Brian
Townsend, MT

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Post by Spike »

hydroguy2 wrote: BTW, my wife and I will burn over 1000gals this yr in our cars. 1000X$3.75=$3750 in everyday ho hum life. on the flipside, 100LL around here is $4.80gal, $3750/4.80 =781 gal. 781/8.5gph=91hrs of life I enjoy. ...Dang, I'm slacking, I'm hoping to log 100hrs of RV life this yr..... guess I better lean a little more.
I really like this view, it puts some things into a different perspective. It can really help to analyse where we individually place our priorities. Thanx for provoking some thoughts in a tangible way :thumbsup:


Also, please remember this is a site whose purpose is to discuss / debate aspects of home building with emphasis on RV's. It is not here to be a place at which we simply whine about it or to call into public question the financial decisions of others. Debating about the sustainability of the industry is absolutely acceptable, unsolicited public speculation of what another member can or cannot afford is not.
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Current Build: 2 years into a beautiful little girl

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hydroguy2
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Post by hydroguy2 »

I apologize, sorry Spike :oops:
Brian
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Post by Rod »

Now, all you guys have to do is have a group hug. :)

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