Buying a Project

[RGraham]

I have been looking around at some of the projects for sale, and would like to get some advice on what to look for when looking at someone's project that is for sale. I have been to Aurora, and took the factory tour, and demo ride in a 9A, but find some of the projects interesting that is available for sale on 6,7, and 8 series. I'm wondering if I should forget looking at some of these projects, and just go with factory QB kit.

It seems there could be some cost, and time savings taking on someone's project sometimes, but I know workmanship, and all kinds of other things come into play. What things should one be aware of, such as FAA rules, requirements, builder logs etc.?

[cjensen]

Welcome to RB!

Are there specific concerns you have with buying an incomplete project? FAA rules, requirements, and builder logs is fairly general.

FAA rules and req's maintain that 51% of the airplane has to be built by amateurs, not 51% by a single person. You need a builder log (with pictures, preferably), to show the FAA to get the repairmen certificate when the time comes.

You'll need a bill of sale to transfer ownership of the kit and serial number.

Have a tech counselor, or at least someone with previous RV building experience to go with you to look over a project you are considering purchasing.

[tmbg]

One of the little things that can be tough about buying a project is making sure you get all the hardware and other small parts that came with the kits. It's easy for that stuff to get misplaced, and it can add up to big bucks if you have to re-purchase it.

[mkjprice]

I would do all the building of my airplane myself, that way I know what has been done to every section. I have seen partially complete kits for sale, and some of the workmanship can be questionable at best. For my peace of mind, I want to know who did what and where to every rivet on my ship. Is this the most cost effective method? Probably not - but I will be much more comfortable in my plance when it is done.

There are my 2 cents - do with it as you please

[RGraham]

This is probably a dumb question, but does the FAA track ownership by serial number before completion of a kit? Is the registered owner information of a kit available on the FAA web site just like any other aircraft?

[cjensen]

No and no.

[RGraham]

When do you file the transfer of ownership?

[cjensen]

Transfer of ownership of a kit takes place with a bill of sale. It doesn't get filed anywhere, but it's nice to let the vendor know.

[tmbg]

so here's my question... I've heard lots of people say that it's super critical to get a bill of sale whenever you purchase a project, and that the chain of ownership has to be unbroken all the way back up to van's in order to be able to register the airplane.

So how do scratchbuilders do it?

In other words, if one has an RV project that they bought and they can't show bills of sale all the way back to van's, what's to stop them from calling it a scratchbuild? I don't see how there can be any legal barrier involving bills of sale in that regard...

[cjensen]

so here's my question... I've heard lots of people say that it's super critical to get a bill of sale whenever you purchase a project, and that the chain of ownership has to be unbroken all the way back up to van's in order to be able to register the airplane.

AFS-750-94-spells out everything needed to register an airplane in the US...
http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificate ... 050-94.pdf

So how do scratchbuilders do it?

No bill of sale is required. Simply check the box that says it was more than 50% built from miscellaneous parts on form 8050-88 (Affidavit of Ownership).

In other words, if one has an RV project that they bought and they can't show bills of sale all the way back to van's, what's to stop them from calling it a scratchbuild? I don't see how there can be any legal barrier involving bills of sale in that regard...

Nothing is stopping them from calling it a scratchbuild. The inspector will probably want to see the plans and will see that it's a Van's RV-X, but if you bought a wing here, a tail there, a fuselage from an estate, etc...there is nothing stopping the builder from checking the miscellaneous parts box.

Paragraph 17...If the box 'built from a kit' is checked, the FAA simply wants to see your very best effort to prove a bill of sale chain with certified mail, letters from previous owners, etc.

You can even get a court order to get a judge to say "It's yours". (paragraph 16)

This shouldn't be a problem with Van's kits though because I believe they changed their bill of sale issuance to the end of a build, not when the kit was purchased.

[lancef53]

So another question, Chad.

I bought a RV6 kit a couple of years ago, that included the tail, wings and fuse kits. It was dirt cheap, and I thought maybe a project I could work on after I finished my 8. I wasn't aware of the Bill of sale requirements at the time of purchase.

The person I bought it from had purchased it from a friend who was sick and needed some money, and never recieved a BOS from the original kit purchaser. The fellow I bought it from never touched it, and sold it to me after owning it for a couple years. The original purchaser had passed away before I bought the kit, so he is out of the picture. I have lots of invoices and the original paperwork from Vans, but it is all in the deceased mans name. Is there anything I can do with it?
Thanks for the help!

[cjensen]

First thing to do Lance is to call Van's to see when that serial number kit was sold and if it was sold with a bill of at the time. If you decide to build and finish the airplane, you can either show your best effort at a paperwork trail (more than likely will work, but each FSDO is different), or check the 'built from parts' box, the latter probably easier.

If it never had a bill of sale issued, you can get that from Van's when finished.

There's always an option...no airplane left behind.

[lancef53]

Ok, I will check with Vans and see what they have to say. I have been putting off the call because I am afraid of what they might tell me

I might have to start working on it this winter if I can get the papers in order

[Spike]

Vans was great to work with on this front. I just sold my 9A to a builder and it was stupid easy. Van's doesn't issue the BOS until after all 4 kits have been purchased and it is requested.

So in my case I simply wrote up a letter with my information, builder number, etc, and placed in it that I sold all of the applicable kits to person x. I signed it. Then the new builder simply faxed it to Van's so that when the time comes for the BOS to be issued, they will issue it to him directly.

Spike

[lancef53]

Spike--the letter you wrote is what I don't have, and cannot get.

I will give them a call and see what my next step is!

[cjensen]

Spike--the letter you wrote is what I don't have, and cannot get.

That's okay Lance. Just document that you've made your best attempts at getting the documentation if the bill of sale was issued with the sale of the kit.

[lancef53]

I called and spoke with Cynthia at Vans today, and told her my info. She said I needed to get a letter from the estate stating that they sold the kit to me or the fellow I got it from, serial number xxxx. Then I can submit that to them, and we go from there. Not exactly what I wanted to hear

So the search continues!!

[cjensen]

Keep in mind that a bill of sale is not required if you check the box 'built from misc. parts'...it can be done, so don't feel too frustrated.