QB RV-7 vs RV-14 cost for first time builder

[keshob]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, though I've been reading for a while. I'm seriously considering building an RV, and have signed up for an EAA RV building course. I have a young family, which of course would argue for the RV-10, but for the purposes of this post I'd like to stick to 2-seaters.

Clearly cost is one of the main issues. I've read a lot about people who are able to build an RV-7 for bargain basement prices of around $40-50K. But I get the impression that these people were born with a riveter in their hand. However, some of us have never built anything before. And I'm not even talking about planes, I mean anything. Sometimes, I think you can be penny wise and pound foolish by taking on a supposedly "cheaper" project that may be beyond your skills or may end up costing just as much in the end.

Let me put down a few assumptions...

1) I have no skills but am eager to learn, and am willing to let the project take as long as necessary. (I fly a 172 in a club, which is pretty affordable so can get my flying fix while building) Learning to build a plane is the goal.
2) Will build a day/night VFR aircraft with steam gauges.
3) Want to save money, but not going for the bare minimum.
4) Intend to use a used lycoming, but will not be overhauling or rebuilding an engine on my own.
5) Acro is not necessary.
6) All tools will have to be purchased (and I mean everything).

Essentially, my question is whether for the first-time builder, the higher cost of the RV-14 is offset by what I understand to be the higher quality and greater ease of building of the kit itself. From a cost and effort perspective, is a first time builder better off going with a more expensive but easier to build RV-14 rather than a quickbuild RV-7?

I suppose while I'm at it, I should ask for some straight dope. All kit manufacturers claim that their planes can be built by average people who acquire the skills along the way. But honestly, how many people do you know who come to an RV project having almost never even handled a hand drill? (I am only slightly exaggerating) Is a pilot like that better off just saving up for a 70s-vintage 182?

Thanks and sorry for the long post and question...

John

[cjensen]

Hey John,

Welcome to Rivetbangers!

I don't think you are in any sort of minority among first time RV builders. I don't have any stats to back up that claim, but knowing what I know of being "in the industry" for almost 15 years (10 in the RV world), regular people, those with knowledge but no practical experience are the norm.

The kits pre-punched kits from Van's are so good that worrying about the difference between skills required to build a QB7 and a 14 is really a silly thing to do. I have seen the 14 kit, and while there is no doubt it is quite advanced, the QB7 (even the standard kit 7) is within reach of anyone willing to learn...seriously, it's a thing of beauty to watch new builders learn quickly and become experts on their subject matter.

I can honestly say that anything Van's has ever claimed, is 100% true...that is straight dope, from someone who has completed and flown a 7, and has had a number of other airplane projects afterward.

Don't make this about skills. Pick the one you want (and can afford) and go with it. Everyone here at RB can tell you that I was a scrounger when I built my 7...I mean really scrounged for deals, and I finished mine with no paint for $62k. I've heard of a few 6's being built for less, but I think I did pretty well with keeping costs as minimal as possible while still ending up with a lightweight fun machine with a glass panel...don't be fooled in to thinking you can make a steam gauge panel cheaper with the EFIS options that are out there now. My bet would be the low end EFIS for day/night VFR will win most of the time cost-wise.

Keep the questions coming, and get to building!

[plbarrett2004]

John,

Chad's post is right on the money, and sufficiently thorough that I can't add a lot. I will reiterate that you shouldn't worry about skills in choosing a kit. Pick the RV you want. When I started building my -8 I had virtually no knowledge or skills, nor did I have any tools. Fortunately, the EAA / RV build community is fantastic. The Sportair classes were canceled when I was starting, and two local builders were nice enough to basically give me the class in their free time. You don't need to know anything yet, except what you want. There is an incredible group of people to lean on.

Cheers,
Peter

[prestwich]

About 9 years ago I bought the emp kit for a -7A and enthusiastically began work in a 5' x 9' entry hall in my little rented cottage. I didn't have the space, the time, or the money to build anything more than the tail, but I assumed those things would materialize. They didn't -- although I have more of all of those than I used to -- and the tail is now for sale.

So I'd encourage you to take inventory, starting with space, time, and money. You might also ask yourself why you want to build. You can buy a completed and flying RV for what you'd spend on parts. Is building glamorous and fun? Possibly. Depends on you. It's also tedious, repetitive, and boring. For the airframe alone, before you even get to the serious work:

1. Deburr all edges
2. Cleco parts together
3. Final drill
4. Un-cleco
5. Deburr holes
6. Re-cleco
7. Rivet
8. Repeat all steps ad infinitum

That doesn't include priming the aluminum, something I see as completely unnecessary, but something that many people do which adds considerable time. By the time I finished the stabilizers, the novelty had pretty much worn off for me. The number of completed RVs is proof that YMMV.

Can you build an RV with no experience? I've been in manufacturing my whole adult life, 40 years or so, so I know how to work with my hands. Nevertheless, an airplane is not a small project, nor is it particularly simple.

I think an extremely important consideration is, by whom are you surrounded? 2 hours away from me is an active EAA group with many flying RVs and many more under construction. Have a question? Want to borrow a tool? Need an extra hand for 1/2 hour? All readily available. But where I live: Hangars are absolutely unobtainium, and as far as I know there isn't one person building anything resembling a flying machine. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is going to be influenced by such things.

It's true that you don't need experience to learn how to build a plane. It's also true that you will have to do the learning somehow, and I'd have to say that I believe that your level of past experience working with your hands will influence the learning curve.

Random thought: If you don't need acro, you might also look at the -9.

If I ever get back to building, I'm going to opt for the -14. Why? It's roomier, and the directions are much, much better. Get beyond the tail on anything earlier than a -12 and you're not dealing with step-by-step instructions. A lot of things have to be sussed out from drawings, and it's more or less standard practice to drill out rivets to do something that should have been done first.

This is an RV support group, and I don't want to piss in your champagne. Many people here have managed to build one or more kits. But many more have not. It would be irresponsible of me to blindly cheer you on: Yes, You Can Do It !!! Whether or not you can is entirely dependent on you and your circumstances.

[bruceh]

If cost is really the issue, then don't build the RV-14. You are not going to be able to scrounge much, since it is a complete kit (and a new one at that).

My free advice would be to find a partially built kit and then finish that with your basic 6 pack steam gauges and get a rebuilt or used engine. That is about the only way you are going to get close to $50K for a completed airplane.

I did the whole slow build of my -9A and it got pretty expensive in the final years, but I at least had the cash to complete it before I started. If you can save 10K a year, then spend that every year for 10 years building you will probably make it happen. I set myself a 5 year goal and was able to meet it. It is a lot of garage time, but extremely rewarding and educational. I learned more about airplanes than I thought possible. I had no previous building experience, but if you are fairly handy and have some engineering/fabrication/wrenching experience you will do just fine. You will get frustrated and get stuck so just ask lots of questions here, search the various web forums and read up on all of the good build logs out there.

Go for it!

[captain_john]

I agree with Bruce. If cost is an issue a 14 would not be effective.

Truth be told, if I were going to build a low dollar RV, I would get a partially completed 6!

Especially if it was going to be fixed pitch. CG is better in a 6 with that configuration than in a 7.

My two...

CJ

[keshob]

Thanks so much for the responses. You've given me a lot to think about here, and the QB 7 is starting to sound attractive. Though I will say, Prestwich's response is very sobering. I should probably spend some time looking in the mirror and evaluating whether I have temperament or aptitude for such a project.

Regardless, I've signed up for a Sportair class to dip my foot in the building experience. Maybe I'll discover that an ancient Mooney is in my future.

[captain_john]

Instead of a Mooney, perhaps a good, used RV?

You will be able to work on the RV, but not the Mooney so much.

CJ

[bullojm1]

Hi John,

First and foremost, welcome to RivetBangers! One of the first decisions you will have to make is whether you want to be a builder, or whether you want to fly. Personally, I loved every moment of the build! Some people want to fly. If you fall into this latter group, you can probably get into a used RV-3/4/6 for well less than you could build a -7/14 for, not to mention you will be able to fly right away! I think your cost estimate for a completed -7 is on the high side. Just as a rule of thumb, I this summarizes your major costs:

1) RV Kit: $22K (slow build)
2) Engine: $20K (low side)
3) Prop: $2K (fixed pitch)
4) Basic Panel: $5K
5) Tools: $2K
6) Misc (interior/paint/parts/wiring/lights): $4K

$55K is about as low as you could do a RV-7 for. It would be possible to do it for less - looking for used engines, deals on used avionics/etc. Putting together a RV on a tight budget doesn't have anything to do with your riveting skills - it's all about how much time you dedicate for searching out the deals and your negotiation skills!

Browsing Barnstormers (http://www.barnstormers.com/Van%27s+RV, ... ifieds.htm) I found a few examples of some RV-6's in the mid 40's. If you buy one of those, you could redo the panel with a fancy EFIS for about $10K and have a sweet ride!

Also, don't be scared of a tailwheel RV instead of a nosewheel if you don't have any experience in taildraggers. I had only about 10 total hours in tailwheels before I transitioned to my RV. The RV is a very tame tailwheel aircraft to fly. If you are undecided about tailwheels, I suggest getting some training and your endorsement before you make a decision. Worst case you hate it, but have a new flying skill!