Riveting guidance

A forum in which to discuss topics specific to the assembly of the RV 7/7A.
Post Reply
Joew
Class G
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Litchfield, Oh

Riveting guidance

Post by Joew »

I'm sure you all have been there. Here I am, ready to actually rivet my nose rib to the HS skin. I can not pull the trigger.....too nervous.

I read and re read the posts. I finally attempt to drive several rivetts, and fail. Both needed to be removed. Any ideas to help me get over the hump? I have a 3x gus set at about 35 to 40 psi. I may go to home depot to pick up some scrap to do some more practice.

Any moral support is appreciated.

Joe

User avatar
bullojm1
Chief Rivet Banger
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:37 pm
Location: KDMW
Contact:

Post by bullojm1 »

Joe-

What seems to be wrong with the rivets you have driven? Do they topple over? If you have a pic, that would help greatly. Those nose rivets are definitely stubborn. If worst comes to worst, put some MK319BS flush pop rivets in there and move on!
Mike Bullock
http://www.rvplane.com
RV-7 | Superior IO-360 | Whirlwind 200RV
Garmin GTN650 | GRT Dual Sport SX EFIS
Status: FLYING!

User avatar
cjensen
Whiskey Victor
Posts: 5275
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:36 pm
Location: Green Bay, WI

Post by cjensen »

Yeah Joe, a pic would really help us try and call this one. Not that we would solve it for ya, but it would help see what the problem may or may not be.

I felt the same way...I probably have some not-so-great rivets back there, but they passed my first TC inspection. I used MK319's on the bottom of those ribs. I didn't even want to attempt those at that time. If I only knew then, what I know now...

It gets easier...TRUST me!!

Take a pic!

8)
Chad Jensen
Missing my RV-7...
Vertical Power support
920.216.3699
http://verticalpower.com

User avatar
dons
Class C
Posts: 873
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:28 pm
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post by dons »

While I don't have the experience most people on here have, try this, make sure you tape up your bucking bar except on the surface where you are trying to hit the rivet. The advantage of this is that you can rest the bar against the rib web without fear of damaging it. On the surface in question I used some electrical tape, then the thick double sided tape, the type with the foam between the sticky layers, then covered that with electrical tape. If you have some thin non-slip mat material (I buy it by the roll at the aviation department in the dollar store), use that, it really helps keep the bucking bar from jumping around too much. Using a marker I coloured in the area on the bucking bar I wanted the rivet to hit, held it loosely in place with the colour showing through the rivet hole, pushed the rivet in, stuck some rivet tape over it, and hammered away. I think my biggest problem with doing blind riveting was knowing where I was on the bucking bar, the colouring solves that issue, and being able to rest the bar against the web, even push a little, kept it from moving too far which also reduced the chance of doing a bad shop head. Most of my bad shop heads early on were because I didn't keep the bucking bar in the right place, now I have invented new ways to screw up.
Don Sinclair
CYKF
RV-7A (Fuselage)

User avatar
smittysrv
Class D
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:10 am
Contact:

Post by smittysrv »

Hi Joe!

We've all been there and everything will be cool, you will see. Van's really ought to change the name of the tail kit to "the practice kit", because that's kind of what it turns out to be.

There was a large bundle of extra aluminum sheets that came with my tailkit, all in various thicknesses. If I remember right these sheets were about 4 inches by 15 inches. I used some of these sheets to practice riveting on. I also found several different sizes of aluminum at Home Depot and Lowes to practice on as well. I suggest that you make a homemade aluminum box just to get aquainted with riveting. It will definitely help and you will end up with a cool little box to put stuff in.

Have a goodun!

User avatar
Wicked Stick
Class B
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:00 pm
Location: KEWB

Post by Wicked Stick »

Van's also sells two practice kits you could try out. (the small airfoil and the toolbox.)

Try and find someone local to you who's already building one, and see if you can hook up with them and get some help from them.
Most are more than eager to help show you some of the do's and don'ts

Here on the Banger's site along with Van's and Van's airforce have listings of builders, even catagorized by make/model too.

Whenever you do run into issues or screw-ups, feel free to post them, along with pictures to help us see what's up..

Don't Dispair, everyone one of us was where you are now in the begining.
Dave "WS" Rogers
RV-8 (125 hrs & counting)
N173DR

User avatar
JohnR
Class B
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: Iowa

Post by JohnR »

Like everyone else said, we've all been there! Have you checked for an EAA chapter near you? I would look up the closest one and join. They can be a great help.
JohnR
RV-7A - Fuselage - SOLD, just not supposed to be
Numbers 6:24 - The LORD bless thee, and keep thee

User avatar
Lorin Dueck
Class D
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:12 pm
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Post by Lorin Dueck »

Hi Joe -
Been there... done that...
Have you ever thought about taking one of the RV builder or sheet metal classes put on by EAA SportAir Workshops?
EAA has several EXCELLENT courses.
The initial instruction / tips you get and the friendships that you make are really worth the $$.
But the biggest plus in my mind is the real experience and knowledgeable / practical hints that you get during the build sessions...

Any others care to comment.. refute?.. endorse??
Good Luck!!

Lorin D
9A Wings

User avatar
captain_john
Sparky
Posts: 5880
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:17 am
Location: KPYM

Post by captain_john »

Wicked Stick wrote:Try and find someone local to you who's already building one, and see if you can hook up with them and get some help from them.
Most are more than eager to help show you some of the do's and don'ts.
I second that.

Seek out a local senior builder or two and your skills will improve. Help them with their project and visa-versa.

You will become part of the network and learn A LOT!

Dave has helped me out many times. I remember back to my HS and I had to rivet the angles in the center onto the forward spar. I kept on screwing them up. Dave came over and they drove like a charm!

Good luck!

:) CJ
RV-7
Garmin G3X with VP-X & a TMX-IO-360 with G3i
It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

Joew
Class G
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Litchfield, Oh

help

Post by Joew »

Thanks for the ideas. As far as the pictures go, I already removed the rivets. The problem I had on one was that it was bending over. The other was that I did not hold the bucking bar correctly.

I do have a tech advisor that looked at my rear and front HS spar. So far so good. The problem came when I had to drive the rivets with the gun. I did do the practice airfoil from vans. It turned out ok. That was several months ago though. I need more practice.

I think I will go to home depot (aviation section) and pick up some scrap.

I just need to get over the fear factor.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Joe

flytoboat
Class E
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:12 am
Location: Bunker Hill, IL

extra AL sheets

Post by flytoboat »

smittysrv wrote:Hi Joe!

We've all been there and everything will be cool, you will see. Van's really ought to change the name of the tail kit to "the practice kit", because that's kind of what it turns out to be.

There was a large bundle of extra aluminum sheets that came with my tailkit, all in various thicknesses. If I remember right these sheets were about 4 inches by 15 inches. I used some of these sheets to practice riveting on. I also found several different sizes of aluminum at Home Depot and Lowes to practice on as well. I suggest that you make a homemade aluminum box just to get aquainted with riveting. It will definitely help and you will end up with a cool little box to put stuff in.

Have a goodun!
Are these extra sheets used anywhere specifically in the tail kit? I did a search, but couldn't find where they would be used. Where have you used these?
Thanks
Don
RV6A purchased flying

User avatar
cjensen
Whiskey Victor
Posts: 5275
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:36 pm
Location: Green Bay, WI

Re: help

Post by cjensen »

Joew wrote:The problem came when I had to drive the rivets with the gun.

Joe
Do you have a friend or wife/girlfriend that you could work with to run the gun or hold the bar? I didn't start shooting/bucking solo until I was well in to the wings...even now, I'd much rather have a helper than run it on my own.

:)
Chad Jensen
Missing my RV-7...
Vertical Power support
920.216.3699
http://verticalpower.com

n8zg
Class G
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Navarre, FL

Riveting guidance

Post by n8zg »

Joe

One of the most common mistakes of new builders is too much air pressure
at the gun. With a 2x gun, 30psi is more than enough for the AN3 rivets
in the tail skins. Try 25psi if your gun is a 3x.

If you're using a flow restrictor or needle valve (usually mounted on
the gun), rather than a regulator (mounted in the line), consider
installing a proper pressure regulator between the tank and the air
supply line to drop the air pressure in the line. The problem with flow
restrictors is that between trigger-pulls, the gun is at line pressure.
The first hit you pull the trigger is most important - it determines how
and in which direction the gun recoils. 90psi at the gun makes trigger
control very difficult. The awkward positions required for riveting the
tail skins without a helper makes it worse.

Neal


<<
The problem came when I had to drive the rivets with the gun. I did do
the practice airfoil from vans. It turned out ok. That was several
months ago though. I need more practice.

Joe
>>
Submitted via email

User avatar
bullojm1
Chief Rivet Banger
Posts: 1374
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:37 pm
Location: KDMW
Contact:

Re: help

Post by bullojm1 »

Joew wrote:
Thanks for the ideas. As far as the pictures go, I already removed the rivets. The problem I had on one was that it was bending over. The other was that I did not hold the bucking bar correctly.
Joe-

Typically a rivet bending over is because of two reasons - 1) the hole is too large or 2) the bucking bar is not held perpendicular to the rivet. Put a long rivet in the hole and check to see if the hole is much bigger than the shaft of the rivet. There is a chance the hole was enlarged when you drilled out the rivet. If it is larger (compare it to some test dimples on some scrap), then you might never get a good shop head and the rivet will always fall over!

Here are two solutions to that particular problem. One is to pre-squeeze a rivet that is 1/2 size longer than the called out size. The purpose of presqueezing a rivet is to cause the shaft to get slightly fatter, making it fit in the hole better.

The other method is to order up some "Oops rivets". Oops rivets have the the head of a AN426AD3- rivet, but the shaft size of a AN426AD4- rivet. Basically, you drill out your existing dimple to a #30 drill and use a Oops rivet. Van's sells them, but if you want a couple to play with, send me an email to mike@rvplane.com and I will ship you out a couple for free to play with.

The best thing to do, however, is to find someone experienced to lend a hand. There isn't anything wrong with asking for help in this project!

Good Luck!
Mike Bullock
http://www.rvplane.com
RV-7 | Superior IO-360 | Whirlwind 200RV
Garmin GTN650 | GRT Dual Sport SX EFIS
Status: FLYING!

User avatar
TomNativeNewYorker
Class D
Posts: 439
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:19 pm
Location: KSAV

Post by TomNativeNewYorker »

a rivet too long will also bend over

Joew
Class G
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Litchfield, Oh

Riveting guidance

Post by Joew »

Thanks for all of your guidance. Amazing how much better I became with the rivet gun after the first few rivets. The nose rib (HS 408 I think) went ok, just a little slow to get started. Once I got the hang of it, the L skin went on smooth. I started the right side, and finished the nise rib in only 15 minutes.

I'm currently traveling for work. When I get back, I should be able to finish the HS. I'd attach some photos if i could figure it out.

Thanks again

Spike
Chief Rivet Banger
Posts: 4013
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Riveting guidance

Post by Spike »

Congratulations! Its good to hear of new builders getting the hang of things.

By the way, there is a thread in the support forum on how to post
pictures, etc.

Spike


Submitted via email

Post Reply