Another couple new guy type questions.
First I have an Avery swivel handle three flute deburr tool and I also have a 4 flute deburr tool. I have tried them both by hand or in a slow drill motor. Either one is capable of creating a little chatter. In fact when I look at the holes with a 4 X loop they all create some chatter. What am I doing wrong?
Perhaps they need to be dulled more? Perhaps a Cleaveland type chatterless deburr tool?
Dimpling these holes just shows the chatter quite nicely. I fear cracks starting.
Second question, if allowed. I have Cleaveland 3/32 tank dies and was considering using them on the substructure. I also have a Professional Air Rivet Tool dimple die set which has very nice regular 3/32 dimple dies. I was wondering if I should just use the regular dies for both the skins and the substructure or if there is a real advantage to using the dimple dies.
All input is greatly appreciated.
Dimpling Understructure for Horizontal Stabilizer
Re: Dimpling Understructure for Horizontal Stabilizer
First, lets clarify...are you talking about dimpling or countersinking? I am assuming countersinking since you are asking about chatter.scottT wrote:Another couple new guy type questions.
First I have an Avery swivel handle three flute deburr tool and I also have a 4 flute deburr tool. I have tried them both by hand or in a slow drill motor. Either one is capable of creating a little chatter. In fact when I look at the holes with a 4 X loop they all create some chatter. What am I doing wrong?
Perhaps they need to be dulled more? Perhaps a Cleaveland type chatterless deburr tool?
Are you using a deburring bit, or a countersinking bit? A deburring bit spun in a drill will chatter because there is no pilot tip to guide it.
Can you post pics of the chatter, or exactly what part you are working on?
IMHO...TWO flute deburring and countersink bits work the best...
I don't follow you on this statement...dimpling a hole or countersinking? Or are you saying dimpling the hole after deburring?scottT wrote:Dimpling these holes just shows the chatter quite nicely. I fear cracks starting.
No need to use the tank dies anywhere but the tanks...and even there it's not absolutely necessary. I didn't use tank dies anywhere. Regular dies are what you want everywhere else.scottT wrote:Second question, if allowed. I have Cleaveland 3/32 tank dies and was considering using them on the substructure. I also have a Professional Air Rivet Tool dimple die set which has very nice regular 3/32 dimple dies. I was wondering if I should just use the regular dies for both the skins and the substructure or if there is a real advantage to using the dimple dies.
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Mike Balzer
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You statement is a little un-clear,
I used the tank dies for most my sub structure when possible. You should debur by hand and not use a drill motor for that process.
I cant remember having to Counter sink the skin on the Horizontal Stabilizer but If you are counter sinking you should use piloted countersinks for the size rivet that you are using.
Just so you know they are 100 degree counter sinks.
keep asking questions if you need help in anything. This is a great site.
Happy building,
Mike Balzer
I used the tank dies for most my sub structure when possible. You should debur by hand and not use a drill motor for that process.
I cant remember having to Counter sink the skin on the Horizontal Stabilizer but If you are counter sinking you should use piloted countersinks for the size rivet that you are using.
Just so you know they are 100 degree counter sinks.
keep asking questions if you need help in anything. This is a great site.
Happy building,
Mike Balzer
It is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, then being in the air and wishing you were on the ground. N78MB
Countersinking ....
I find the 3 and more flute debur tools can all chatter as well, especially if you start by pressing a bit too much. Sometime if you use less pressure you can avoid the chatter, or even fix one with chatter marks. I went and bought the single flute countersinking bits as well, but you have to be careful with those too, they can really bite in quickly if you start a countersink with them. Using a cage is required with the single flute ones in my opinion or you can quickly go too deep.
The procedure I typically now use is to start with 3 flute piloted bits, and if it gets away from me and starts to chatter, I clean it up with a single flute one. The only countersinking I do with a debur tool is for NAS1097AD3 rivets, and even then I sometimes use the piloted countersink bits. Having two countersink cages and marking them so you know where to set them for each bit type, size, and depth really helps speed things along too.
Dimpling ....
I will admit I have been using both standard and tank dies throughout the build. I always use the standard dies for the skins (even on my tanks). I then use the tank dies for the bottom layer and standard dies for anything in between. For internal dimpled layers I tend to give the dimples 6 to 10 light turns with a debur tool. I find the layers mate together better and edges tend not to curl up as much after riveting this way, but that is just my opinion.
I find the 3 and more flute debur tools can all chatter as well, especially if you start by pressing a bit too much. Sometime if you use less pressure you can avoid the chatter, or even fix one with chatter marks. I went and bought the single flute countersinking bits as well, but you have to be careful with those too, they can really bite in quickly if you start a countersink with them. Using a cage is required with the single flute ones in my opinion or you can quickly go too deep.
The procedure I typically now use is to start with 3 flute piloted bits, and if it gets away from me and starts to chatter, I clean it up with a single flute one. The only countersinking I do with a debur tool is for NAS1097AD3 rivets, and even then I sometimes use the piloted countersink bits. Having two countersink cages and marking them so you know where to set them for each bit type, size, and depth really helps speed things along too.
Dimpling ....
I will admit I have been using both standard and tank dies throughout the build. I always use the standard dies for the skins (even on my tanks). I then use the tank dies for the bottom layer and standard dies for anything in between. For internal dimpled layers I tend to give the dimples 6 to 10 light turns with a debur tool. I find the layers mate together better and edges tend not to curl up as much after riveting this way, but that is just my opinion.
Don Sinclair
CYKF
RV-7A (Fuselage)
CYKF
RV-7A (Fuselage)
Clarifying my ambiguity
First thank you all for replying and I apologize for my fuzzy language.
I am talking about deburring holes that have been transfer or match drilled #40 for 426AD3 flush rivets. I am using a deburring bit, both a 3 flute and a 4 flute, and am talking about the skin flanges of the HS-404, -405, -706, -707, -708 etc and the -601 skins.
I tried the Avery swivel handle and an electric screw driver using the hex adapter a very slow speed. Both produced the same result. Thought maybe with the screw driver I could hole the bit more perpendicular, but no change in result.
Yes I am talking about dimpling after deburring.
I got my 3 flute from Avery and do not remember the source of the 4 flute.
Where would I find a TWO flute deburring bit?
I am talking about deburring holes that have been transfer or match drilled #40 for 426AD3 flush rivets. I am using a deburring bit, both a 3 flute and a 4 flute, and am talking about the skin flanges of the HS-404, -405, -706, -707, -708 etc and the -601 skins.
I tried the Avery swivel handle and an electric screw driver using the hex adapter a very slow speed. Both produced the same result. Thought maybe with the screw driver I could hole the bit more perpendicular, but no change in result.
Yes I am talking about dimpling after deburring.
I got my 3 flute from Avery and do not remember the source of the 4 flute.
Where would I find a TWO flute deburring bit?
Scott,
I think you'll find a lot of different opinions and methods used by builders. There's no single right way or wrong way. Just do some experimenting and find what works best for you and gets the job done. With that said, I thought I might as well toss in my 2 cents worth.
I've tried the fluted bits and always got chattering. Then I tried the ONE HOLE deburring/countersinking bit, and never looked back. With only one cutting surface, it's impossible for any chatter to occur. I bought one of each in two different sizes. The smaller one works for over 90% of the work, but the larger one has been very handy at times for larger holes. I'm nearly finished with my fuselage kit, and these two bits have been the only ones I've used and they're still sharp. So it's been very economical, too.
I tried deburring by hand, and it's frustratingly slow and quickly tires your wrist. So I just chuck the bit in my hand drill. Using a SLOW speed and light pressure, count one or two rotations MAX in each drilled hole and move to the next one. I just keep the trigger down and keep going, hopping from hole to hole. I can deburr a whole skin in no time and the results have been excellent.
Incidentally, I also use this bit for the small countersinks used for NAS 1097 "oops" rivets. I use those rivets for most nutplate installations, and you don't have to dimple the skin or the nutplate. I count about 10 turns of the bit and then check with a rivet to see if it's deep enough. Works great.
There are times and places where a drill won't fit (like the insides of rib flanges). The hand tools won't fit either. For those places, I use a 12" extension. You can either chuck it in the drill or even hold it by hand to deburr. Sometimes, if it's really tight, I don't use the extension either. I just hold the bit in there, applying pressure with one finger while turning it by hand with your fingers. You just do whatever it takes and move on.
Again, it's just one mans opinion, but I wouldn't do it any differently if I were to start over. Give these bits a try. You'll likely agree. If not, that's okay, too.
Good luck! Please keep us posted and let us know what works for you.
I think you'll find a lot of different opinions and methods used by builders. There's no single right way or wrong way. Just do some experimenting and find what works best for you and gets the job done. With that said, I thought I might as well toss in my 2 cents worth.
I've tried the fluted bits and always got chattering. Then I tried the ONE HOLE deburring/countersinking bit, and never looked back. With only one cutting surface, it's impossible for any chatter to occur. I bought one of each in two different sizes. The smaller one works for over 90% of the work, but the larger one has been very handy at times for larger holes. I'm nearly finished with my fuselage kit, and these two bits have been the only ones I've used and they're still sharp. So it's been very economical, too.
I tried deburring by hand, and it's frustratingly slow and quickly tires your wrist. So I just chuck the bit in my hand drill. Using a SLOW speed and light pressure, count one or two rotations MAX in each drilled hole and move to the next one. I just keep the trigger down and keep going, hopping from hole to hole. I can deburr a whole skin in no time and the results have been excellent.
Incidentally, I also use this bit for the small countersinks used for NAS 1097 "oops" rivets. I use those rivets for most nutplate installations, and you don't have to dimple the skin or the nutplate. I count about 10 turns of the bit and then check with a rivet to see if it's deep enough. Works great.
There are times and places where a drill won't fit (like the insides of rib flanges). The hand tools won't fit either. For those places, I use a 12" extension. You can either chuck it in the drill or even hold it by hand to deburr. Sometimes, if it's really tight, I don't use the extension either. I just hold the bit in there, applying pressure with one finger while turning it by hand with your fingers. You just do whatever it takes and move on.
Again, it's just one mans opinion, but I wouldn't do it any differently if I were to start over. Give these bits a try. You'll likely agree. If not, that's okay, too.
Good luck! Please keep us posted and let us know what works for you.
One Hole Deburr Bits
Bruce,
Thanks for the advice.
I have been experimenting as advised, after finding techniques that work things are speeding up. I must say though that the discovery is half the fun.
Where would I find the bits you show in the photos?
Thanks for the advice.
I have been experimenting as advised, after finding techniques that work things are speeding up. I must say though that the discovery is half the fun.
Where would I find the bits you show in the photos?
For deburring I like the small one Bruce noted, does a great job. I put mine into a small electric screwdriver unit. If the burrs are really bad, I sometimes hit it with the three flute tool from Avery maybe once around while NOT keeping it perpendicular (sorta do a large circle with the handle end) and then use the one flute tool.
I've also used the single flute tool to get into really tight spots by using a few inches of plastic tube to form a splice to a long drill bit (even smaller in diameter than what Bruce showed, which I have also done. The plastic tube is actually how I attached the bit to the hex screwdriver socket. Believe it or not, I don't have pictures of either.
I've also used the single flute tool to get into really tight spots by using a few inches of plastic tube to form a splice to a long drill bit (even smaller in diameter than what Bruce showed, which I have also done. The plastic tube is actually how I attached the bit to the hex screwdriver socket. Believe it or not, I don't have pictures of either.
Don Sinclair
CYKF
RV-7A (Fuselage)
CYKF
RV-7A (Fuselage)