SB 569

A forum to discuss the installation and maintenance of the O-320, O-360, & O-540 engines and their variants.
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cjensen
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SB 569

Post by cjensen »

from aero news network this morning-

"Possible AD Looms For Lycoming Owners Affected By Latest Service Bulletin

Calls For "Retirement" Of 5,000+ Crankshafts

Two-hundred-million dollars. That's the current price tag on Textron/Lycoming's effort to, in the company's words, "proactively retire" thousands of engines with potential crankshaft problems. Now, Lycoming has announced yet another bulletin -- SB 569, which calls for replacement of over 5,000 crankshafts on engines ranging from the O-360 to the IO-720.

Unlike earlier service bulletins, however, the latest warning from Lycoming affects crankshafts that, to the company's knowledge, haven't failed to perform as designed -- and that rubs the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association the wrong way.

"Even Lycoming concedes that there have been no failures with these crankshafts," said Luis Gutierrez, AOPA director of regulatory and certification policy. "The FAA needs to do its homework and ensure that there is compelling, risk-based data to support what will be an expensive proposition for owners."

SB 569 calls for the crankshaft to be replaced whenever the crankcase is opened, the engine overhauled, or within three years, whichever comes first. That's not the worst of it, though: unlike previous ADs where the company paid all expenses for replacing the crankshaft, Lycoming is only offering to provide a $2,000 "crankshaft kit." If the SB requirements are written into an AD, AOPA reports owners could face a $6,000 to $7,000 bill within three years.

While it's customary for the FAA to solicit user input and experience before issuing an AD, the agency has not yet done that. However, the Wall Street Journal reports the FAA is preparing to step in and make all Lycoming service bulletins related to crankshafts into Airworthiness Directives.

Already, Lycoming has set aside $190-million -- most of it insurance money -- to deal with the existing problems found in crankshafts for a wide range of aircraft.

Textron has tried to recoup some of its money already on the crankshaft debacle, by suing the company that made the defective parts -- Interstate Southwest, Ltd of Navasota, TX. In a strange legal twist, however, the judge ordered Textron to pay Interstate $96 million in damages -- after the jury found that Textron defrauded Interstate by hiding design defects and other problems with its engines.

That verdict is now under appeal. Meanwhile, Lycoming owners are on the edge of their seats, awaiting word on whether the latest service bulletin will result in an Airworthiness Directive.

AOPA is "strongly urging" the FAA to go through the Airworthiness Concern Sheet (ACS) process, which allows the FAA to consult with owner groups and type clubs to obtain operational data on crankshaft problems, and consider alternatives before issuing an AD. Such a directive would hit owners with a $35 million bill for repairs, according to the association.

AOPA also argues that if crankshaft replacement is warranted, it should be based on time in service -- rather than an arbitrary calendar time. "The FAA seems to be receptive to that," said Gutierrez, "and that would have a real cost of ownership benefit for most private aircraft owners."

"In three years, some owners may still have less than 500 hours on their crankshafts," said Gutierrez. "That is why it is essential that any retirement scheme not be arbitrary but based on solid data that indicates when the failures are likely to occur."

AOPA will also be urging Lycoming to provide the same kind of benefits to owners as it has with the previous ADs -- namely, covering the costs of compliance."



chad: dialing 1-800-eggenfellner...ring, ring, ring...

egg: "eggenfellner aircraft, this is jan"

chad: "good morning jan! i'd like to order an H-6 today"

jan: "it's about time, chad!"

chad: "i know, i know...i need an engine that won't cost me another 6-8 grand in a few years because of an SB or AD"

jan: "an H-6 is on it's way for you!"

:D :banme:
Chad Jensen
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http://verticalpower.com

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aerial
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Post by aerial »

I was kinda gung-ho for a while on a subaru, or a mazda, but then I don't know anything about aviation really, except what I hear other people say. (Is that hear-say :? ) And everytime I talk to someone really knowledgable about airplane engines, they always say, "don't use an automotive engine". I heard somethind like that from Mr. VanGrunsven himself. But this has been seconded, and thirded, by others.

I wonder if we had the stringent requirements on subaru engines that are on the lycoming's if we would not have the same troubles. I know there are a lot of clicking and smoking subaru's around this neck of the woods. (But the're still running :mrgreen: )

I have an IO-320 already that appears to be rebuilt (has new jugs, pistons). But I don't have any paperwork so I am going to tear it down and have a look-see. Now if I could somehow get a new crank out of the deal that would be sweet!

The other plus is that due to this MSB there might be a glut of engines that people decide to swap out and you could pick up one cheap, put a new crank it and be good to go. I would love to have a 540....thinking super size me?

We'll have to see how it plays out.
Duane Cole T-cart 0-320 Full Inverted

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

aerial wrote:...The other plus is that due to this MSB there might be a glut of engines that people decide to swap out and you could pick up one cheap, put a new crank it and be good to go. I would love to have a 540....thinking super size me?

We'll have to see how it plays out.
swapping out for, say, a subaru!!?? sorry aerial, had to throw that in there! :lol:

all kidding aside, it just boggles my mind that they keep having metallurgy problems because of lack of quality control from the companies that are contracted out to forge the parts. it's a small industry, airplane engines, why can't they get it right? they did have it right back when lycoming was making the parts themselves. old engines don't suffer from these present day rounds of parts problems.

i fly behind plain jane aircraft engines all the time, and i have no problem with them from reliability standpoint. but, i'm not paying the bill to have 'em fixed. if i did have and engine, i do have a major problem with SB's and AD's that force dollars to come flying out of my pocket for replancement parts that could've been prevented if someone would hold QC accountable.

sorry guys, that was a soapbox ramble... :oops:

am i looking at this particular problem the wrong way?? :o
Chad Jensen
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Dan A
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Post by Dan A »

If you are going to buy a Lycoming, --buy a clone made by Superior or ECI instead. I don't believe the problem is with them, only Lycoming.
Dan Flying an Aerosport Power with Superior parts.

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

yes, but some clones DO use lycoming parts. but, i do totally agree with you. if i were to go that route, i would go with a clone. :)
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aerial
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Post by aerial »

I just can't understand the silence I get when asking about auto engines. I know we (collectively) are inherently skeptical. But is it because they are still unproven, or because they are unconventional?

I think resale value is a consideration. If Honda put out that motor they did with Continental I would have no reservations regardless of opinion because of my own experience with Honda motors.

I went and looked at Innodyn again http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html again. That RV-4 take off and landing is just too cool.
Duane Cole T-cart 0-320 Full Inverted

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captain_john
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Post by captain_john »

I am not concerned with resale. I want a Lycoming for conventionality.

The kit has been designed around the Lycosaurus and will go together the fastest and be less likely to be troubled with anomolies if I stay fairly mainstream. I don't wanna reinvent the wheel.

That's just me...

:| CJ
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It's all over but the flying! 800+ hours in only 3 years!

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cjensen
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Post by cjensen »

aerial wrote:I just can't understand the silence I get when asking about auto engines. I know we (collectively) are inherently skeptical. But is it because they are still unproven, or because they are unconventional?

I think resale value is a consideration. If Honda put out that motor they did with Continental I would have no reservations regardless of opinion because of my own experience with Honda motors.

I went and looked at Innodyn again http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html again. That RV-4 take off and landing is just too cool.
i agree with the skeptezism on most auto conversions, and i'm a supporter! there are some (like the egg) that are proving to be reliable. some are just basket cases.

not worried about resale, i don't plan on selling...

i know what you mean about the innodyn site. i LOVE listening to that thing start up!! 8) i play that video over and over again! :roll:
Chad Jensen
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jim_geo
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Post by jim_geo »

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/service ... rsb569.pdf
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support ... SB-569.pdf
So I was real interested in this and decided to take a look at the SB. Yup it's not good for some people but I just find it hard to link the problems of the engines affected with an engine I'd be putting into my plane. Unless I'd be buying a used engine for my plane and if I were some internal investigation would be warranted. When weighing the options and talking with my good A&P he made the comment that a good engine is never taken off an airplane and replaced so why buy one that has. Just a thought.

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