First parts arrive

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:58 am

Today the first parts for the engine build fuel system arrived. Along with a mess O nuts, bolts and washers for the engine assembly.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:26 am

sweet! i definately want to keep seeing pics of this project!!

aerial · Post by **aerial** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:35 pm

Sano!

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:49 pm

For those of you that are following this I have just received a few back ordered parts. I'm still waiting for the rest which will be coming from ECI.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:35 pm

jim, my interest is really piqued here...

i thought we have had this discussion here before, but i'm gonna bring it up again. are you able to build this engine yourself? i didn't think anyone was allowed to build one themselves, at least not a new one?

what's the story with your engine again?

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:31 pm

Back when I was asking if anyone knew where I could buy engine parts someone posted that I should call AERO in Illinois. The number and person I talked to are also on that post. It's easy to find I believe it's under this subject heading, I'm not going to link to it here. So I asked Jesse, the person I was recommended to talk to, the same question you just asked. His reply was that AERO used to build engines but no longer did and that ECI approached them to sell components to kit builders. There it is I'm waiting to see my ECI parts. The answer to the other part of your question is yes I can build my own engine. There is nothing or at least very little I haven't seen before while re building other engines and the bonus is these will be all clean NEW parts. Also we are building experimental planes so you could put a ford V8 in one if you wanted to. Remember Chad a certified engine isn't certified after you hang it on one of our planes.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:37 pm

jim_geo wrote:Remember Chad a certified engine isn't certified after you hang it on one of our planes.

yes, that much i'm aware of. i just didn't think that the kit engine companies were willing to sell to individuals to build their own due to such wide range of experience or exposure (or lack thereof). i've never done it, but i've watched dozens of them being torn down and rebuilt over the past seven years at image air. i could probably build one right there at work with six or seven mechanics watching over every piece.

hmmm...that's not a half bad idea!

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:47 pm

There you go Chad. You have the perfect opportunity to learn something very valuable for your career. The first tenant of homebuilding is education......................right?

Dan A · Post by **Dan A** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:00 pm

Yup!, putting one of these engines together is about like rebuilding an over grown air cooled VW engine. Not too much to them. And having seperate cylinders with heads is a much better design.
Dan

Mahlon · Post by **Mahlon** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:20 am

Guys,
A word to the wise..don't assume that just because these parts are all new that they will fit together and be in proper tolerance with each other upon assembly. When assembling please, please, clean and do a full inspection followed by a full, dimensional inspection, to make sure you are tolerance correctly both before and during assembly!
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:25 am

Mahlon, glad to see that you are checking in! What is a "dimensional inspection" and how do you do it?

jim_geo wrote:...we are building experimental planes so you could put a ford V8 in one if you wanted to. Remember Chad a certified engine isn't certified after you hang it on one of our planes.

Jim, the way I understand it, a certified engine is always a certified engine. It may be doing "duty" on an experimental, but the engine is the engine. If we use a certified engine and prop, it cuts our flight testing time down to 20 hours as I recall. But, if there is an SB or AD on it... you must comply with it.

Gents, do I have this right?

CJ

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:11 am

Mahlon wrote:Guys,
A word to the wise..don't assume that just because these parts are all new that they will fit together and be in proper tolerance with each other upon assembly. When assembling please, please, clean and do a full inspection followed by a full, dimensional inspection, to make sure you are tolerance correctly both before and during assembly!
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

Mahlon, thanks for the input. Is the tolerance issue most pronounced with parts from various manufactures or is it a common problem even if all the parts are from one source?

When building motorcycle engines I know if we mixed and matched parts from various vendors tolerances became a fairly large issue sometimes. If everything was from Honda there was less problems though we still checked and sometimes would find items that were on opposite ends of the tolerance range which did not match each other well. With bikes it was usually a fairly easy fix as we would go to the parts bin and try another one. That is probably not a solution most of us can apply with an airplane engine.

Something to keep in mind if we plan on working on our own engines looks like.

Mahlon, I really appreciate your input and the knowledge that you share with us on the boards. Thanks you for your time!

JohnR · Post by **JohnR** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:15 am

captain_john wrote:Mahlon, glad to see that you are checking in! What is a "dimensional inspection" and how do you do it?

jim_geo wrote:...we are building experimental planes so you could put a ford V8 in one if you wanted to. Remember Chad a certified engine isn't certified after you hang it on one of our planes.
Jim, the way I understand it, a certified engine is always a certified engine. It may be doing "duty" on an experimental, but the engine is the engine. If we use a certified engine and prop, it cuts our flight testing time down to 20 hours as I recall. But, if there is an SB or AD on it... you must comply with it.

Gents, do I have this right?

CJ

From what I have seen and read I believe that jim_geo is correct in that onceyour hang that certified engine on your experimental it is no longer certified. It was explained somewhere that it is because of the fact that you can do your own maintenace on the experimental. This fact makes the non-certified experimental engines look more appealing to me as it cost less up front.

cjensen · Post by **cjensen** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:27 am

captain_john wrote:Jim, the way I understand it, a certified engine is always a certified engine. It may be doing "duty" on an experimental, but the engine is the engine. If we use a certified engine and prop, it cuts our flight testing time down to 20 hours as I recall. But, if there is an SB or AD on it... you must comply with it.

Gents, do I have this right?

CJ

that's more or less how i understand it as well, but unless it has a full recert inspection after coming off an experiemental (if it ever did), it can't be used in a certy'd airplane.

also, the fly off time is a function of the DAR and local FSDO. some FSDO's (i think mine) require 40 hours regardless of the engine type.

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:10 pm

Well here's what I understand it to be. Basically I take a new certified engine from Lycoming, put it on my, RV then after some time decide I want to put it in my 172. I can't do it without an inspection and recertification of the engine. I think this includes a new log book for the engine also but am not sure about that.

Now about how I'm going to handle the new parts and thanks for being concerned. All of the aluminum parts are going to an engine shop that I deal with for a washing in their “dish washer”. That will clean any errant flakes of metal, sand or grime from those parts. I will check every thing dimensionally esp. the rings. I plan to mic the journals for roundness and include that chart in the original engine log book. Those couple things are just for starters. I have obtained a copy of the Lycoming overhaul and a new table of limits. I've read that manual once so far and plan another reading once more before starting. So far I haven't run across any surprises.

Mahlon · Post by **Mahlon** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:58 am

You can get tolerance misfit weather the parts are all from one source or if they are from many different sources. It is relatively common to have to substitute parts, on one engine, to get proper tolerances during assembly even though they are all new. Perfect example is valve lash, it is very common that the push rods supplied are the wrong length to get proper clearance. Many times you can have parts that measure up fine but may be to tight or loose tolerance wise, when the two are put together. Common problem is main bearing and crankshaft journal clearance. Any way, just trying to point out that there could be some shortfalls even with all new parts.
Jim, sounds like a solid plan... glad you are not planning on just assembling it without cleaning and checking first.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:48 pm

Last week my engine parts arrived. I had a few things to do in the shop before getting all excited about it though. The picture below is basically what the truck brought. There are two back order items, a gear and a package of washers still on the way.

Dan A · Post by **Dan A** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:49 pm

Looks great Jim! Now you can have fun building your engine. I would make sure all the rods and pistons (w/ rings) are near the same weight as possible in order to have a smooth balanced engine. But you are probably aware of that already.

Enjoy the process and we will all be waiting to hear the outcome.
Dan

jim_geo · Post by **jim_geo** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:11 pm

Actually the pick looks to be based on weight. All the con rods are the same gram weight and the pistons are within one gram high or low. I don't remember the numbers off hand but two were something like 490 grams and two were 491 grams. Those numbers are just examples for this post not meant to be taken as an actual weight. Up close the parts look top notch. ECI castings are among the best I've seen.

captain_john · Post by **captain_john** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:26 am

WOW! This stuff looks great!!!

Jim, I find it interesting that you are taking the time to assemble your engine and went with a QB plane. Is this because your strengths lie with the engine side of things? Just wondering...

CJ