RV-7 vs. Legacy FG

[N200PF]

OK here's a curveball for ya!

I looked at the Lancair Legacy about 2 years ago, thought it was a good fit but didn't have even close to enough money to build one. The quote I got on the fished plane with a modest IFR panel was $278,000. It's nice to dream.

Anyway, I came across the new Legacy FG a few days ago. Maybe I've been living under a rock but I never even thought to price one. So I called my Lancair rep back and she sent me the same plane, same panel, same 4 weeks of builder assist with a TIO-360 (180hp Turbo) rather than the IO-540 and it came in at $123,000. That's about 20K more that the RV-7 estimate came in. The differences in the Legacy FG vs. the Legacy RG are that the body is e-glass rather than carbon fiber, it set up to take a 4cyl Lycoming and the gear stays down. Everything else is the same.

With a 233mph cruise @ 75% on 10gph at 18,000 that's hard not to look again. It's speced at 210mph @ 75% on 10 gph at 8000. Vne on the e-glass fuse is 274mph.

OK so RIP AWAY!!! Tell me I'm nuts! Tell me that fiberglass is a NIGHTMARE to work with! Tell me why I should go with plan A and buy the RV-7 we planned to buy in April!

- Peter

[Dan A]

Sure, the top end sounds great. What about the low end?What is the stall speed? i'll bet it is much higher than the RV series!
Dan

[captain_john]

I can't tell you that. I CAN tell you that it isn't entirely about the plane. It is also about the build. What material would you prefer to work with?

CJ

[mustang]

Well, I've done more glass work than metal. Glass, carbon, kevlar, vacuum bagging, epoxy, polyester, all that fun stuff. This is my first whack at metal, and I have to say, I like it. The smelliest thing I do now is paint. My hands turn grey working with the aluminum but it washes off easily. I spent today wearing a respirator while shooting epoxy primer. What a relief to take it off. And the gloves too. With aluminum, you just go to work wearing a Tee shirt and jeans. No itching, scratching, (except for my head) or pulling resin off your hairy arms!

I guess it comes down to; do you really want a glass ship or an RV. Build the one you want. There is too much time involved in the building of an airplane to build something that doesn't capture your heart.

Cheers, Pete

[captain_john]

I have a car builder friend that comes over to help from time to time. He always comments on how clean the building process is.

I must aggree. At the end of a building session, all I normally do is wash my hands with a mild, detergent soap. I don't need to dust the shop or blow dust off myself with the air hose.

I am sure the plastic planes are quite different.

CJ

[Spike]

Ive very much thought that my next build may be something glass like a glassair or some such. Outside of having a place to do it (chemical smells and stuff) my biggest concern is insurance.

[bmurrish]

Bad place to ask that question. You know we are all going to tell you to build the Vans Good luck on what decision you make.

[N200PF]

Thanks everyone these are ALL VERY VALID points! Actually Bill I though this might be the right place to ask considering all the people building Lancairs (not that many...another reason) wouldn't have a thing to say about how dirty, smelly and sticky the process is.

Mustang, you said it well in that we all have to be emotionally attched to our planes for them to be enjoyable...and I believe for them to get finished!

As I've said all along, Beth and I are learning until we buy in April. Looking at the FG and ruling it out will make us feel that much better about building the RV-7. We'll never have to look back.

Thanks again everyone!!!

- Peter

PS - Dan - the stall sped is very high at 58kts (65mph) dirty. However this is within 1 kts of what my Arrow II is now.

[hngrflyr]

I have a friend in the hangar next door who is a retired airline pilot. He just got his Legacy flying a few weeks ago. His is retractable. His cruise speed is about 85 kts faster than our RV-6. His fuel burn is almost twice what mine is. He crosses the numbers at 80 kts or so. It takes him more room to operate. He also says he will never fly it off grass runways. The airplane you want depends on the mission you want for it.

[N200PF]

hngrflyr -

You are right on. The IO-550 in his Legacy RG is 310 hp and burns a ton of fuel. The TIO-360 is which is not an option on the RG, only on the FG, is 180 hp and will be in the 10 gph range.

We currently don't use grass strips based on the retractable gear in our Arrow II. ...like you said, your plane should fit your mission. Speed and range are both important to us but at the cost of what fexibilty we have not determined yet...

- Peter

[bmurrish]

Actually Bill I though this might be the right place to ask considering all the people building Lancairs (not that many...another reason) wouldn't have a thing to say about how dirty, smelly and sticky the process is.

That is a good point Peter. I am assuming there is a Lancair builder's group. If so, have you asked the question to them on which one to build? I wonder what kind of answers you would get from the other side. Just curious as to how they view our planes.

Oh yeah, stick with building a RV

[hngrflyr]

Oh, one thing I left out of my first post, He has over $120,000 more in his Legacy than we do in our RV-6, and doesn't have a paint job on it yet. He has a steam guage instrument panel with lots of bells and whistles. It's going to be a very nice airplane when he's finished, but for the flying we do, our RV-6 is just about as good a fit as could be found.

[Dan A]

My old t-cart flew fine at 65 mph. I guess I like the slower landing speeds. The glass airplane is fast but I still believe the RV is the best bang for the buck!
Dan

[Thermos]

Gotta throw my two cents in about a friend's Glasair building experience that helped shape my attitude toward glass airplanes.

The Glasair wing is (or at least was in '94 when this happened) assembled like a big plastic model airplane kit - the bottom half of the wing is jigged as one piece, with the spar and ribs glassed in place. After coating the mating surfaces of the ribs and spar with a liberal amount of resin, the upper skins are dropped on the lower skin and the whole assembly is clamped as the resin sets.

Anyway...

My friend had his lower wing skin jigged to within an inch of its life. He had spent lots of time cutting, sanding, fitting and glassing a whole bunch of ribs, and had the fuel tanks plumbed and baffled. Came time to close up the wing, so he invited some fellow chapter members over to help spread resin on all those mating surfaces. The resin set up pretty quickly, so it was important to get the upper skins in place without delay.

One of the helpers was a LongEz/Berkut builder, and he applied resin to the spar and ribs the way his plans called for - which was to only wet the mating surfaces, not to apply resin liberally per the Glasair plans. Unfortunately, his error didn't get caught before the skins were joined and clamped.

After a few days, my friend 'tap-tested' his wing skins. If you're not familiar with tap-testing it means taking a quarter, tapping on a composite surface, and listening for a hollow sound that indicates voids (i.e., air pockets) in the composite layup. Well, my friend found voids in the area where enough resin hadn't been applied - which happened to be in the upper skin-to-spar bond. His only choices were to (a) scrap the whole assembly, or (b) drill holes in the void areas, inject more resin, and hope he got all the problem areas. He was not a happy camper.

So...it seems like glass airplane building can be pretty intolerant of error. You could say the same for certain parts of RV building, but it seems to me that the screwups are a lot easier to spot and probably cheaper to correct.

My hat's off to glass airplane builders and all the work they put in on their ships, but I'm happy with my choice of an RV-7.

Dave

[Spike]

RV's have the same critical type moments though. One slip of the drill when putting the hole in the rear wing spar fuse attach and your screwed. Lots o money wasted with that one.

[N200PF]

Thanks again everyone for all the input and help!

Thermos -

I spent the weekend learning even more about the glass build process from one Lancair builder that is done and two others that are still working (sanding) and I think your assessment is VERY accurate. None of them would directly say it but I believe they all relied fairly heavily on the Lancair factory "Builder Assist" programs for closing up the wings and finishing the fuselage. They seem to each have truly begun the process individually with primarily finishing left to do on the wings and fuselage. The package I had priced had 4 weeks of builder assist which would leave me with a completely finished tail / fuselage and closed wings just waiting for finish sanding, panel, engine and interior. This 4 weeks was included in the completed airplane price with panel, engine and paint for $123,000.

My opinion is that a glass plane may take shape faster and look like an airplane sooner but has significantly more work to be done on the back end of the process. ...and that is dirty, dusty, sticky work to be sure! Each builder joked about this. All seemed happy with the choice but two of the three admitted that it was more than they bargained for even after builder assist.

All in all I feel the process is important but not a deal breaker either way for the plane that fits us and our missions the best. If we can learn to rivet, we can learn to sand and visa versa.

As I said before, questioning our original choice of the RV-7 will only make us feel better about our decision to build the -7 knowing we have explored all other options. We will never have to think, "what if..."

- Peter

[Thermos]

All in all I feel the process is important but not a deal breaker either way for the plane that fits us and our missions the best. If we can learn to rivet, we can learn to sand and visa versa.

That's absolutely right! I certainly wasn't trying to turn anyone off from glass airplanes...just gotta be careful. And Spike's right too...you can easily make some high-dollar-value mistakes on RVs.

Best of luck with whatever kit you choose

Dave

[Guest]

I recently had to make this choice between the 7 and the Legacy FG. Eventually it came down to two things for me -- money and flight characteristics.

I am relatively low time with 350 hours, but I have an instrument rating and plan on flying my plane IFR. Having flown both the 7 and the Legacy I found the Legacy more pitch sensitive than I care for in an IFR plane. FYI, my IFR experience has primarily been in 172s with some time in the Bonanza and Diamond DA40.

On the money end it seemed with Lancair that I was always chasing their price increases. I finally gave up, had them refund my deposit and sent part of it to Van's so I could just get started instead of dreaming for yet another year.

In terms of sex appeal I think the Legacy FG wins hands down. The FG also appears to have a slight performance edge. However the RV has the advantage of more room in the cockpit, lower build times, lower expense, lower insurance costs . . . Although I was reluctant to give up my fast glass dream, I am very happy with my choice.

[Cherokee Driver]

I am not at all an expert in the ways of glass work so I may be off on my personal viewpoint...but I had three concerns that steered me away from the idea of a glass plane.

1. is working temps. I see you live in St Paul...I live near Milwaukee. I understand that you need to keep your working temps in check...that makes some of the winter months less productive. (Unless you are blessed with a nice heated shop.)

2. Another issue for me (may not be for you) is what I refer to as "walk-away-ability." In my job I am tied to a pager and cell phone and frequently have to drop what I am doing to rush off to work...NOW. If I were to be in the middle of a major lay-up, I might just have to leave it unfinished to respond to a page. That would be too costly for me to think about...so when I build it will need to be "walk-away-able."

3. The last was the "Couch Factor." How much time was I willing to spend on the couch because of the smell, dust and other "yuck" I would bring into the house; not to mention how many "not-right -now-dear... I-am-in the-middle-of-a-lay-up's," I would more than likely utter to my lovely and supportive wife/co-builder.

My 2 cents. Good luck with your decision. Enjoy the process which ever way you go.

Cherokee Driver.

[captain_john]

...add to that the sinus problems and the filthy sticky finger and you got a metal plane builder!

Those reasons are similar to mine!

Friends don't let friends build pastic planes!

CJ