Help me plan my panel!

[Brantel]

I am going to be mocking up my panel a few times, using the different platforms that I am concidering.

My mission will be an IFR ship capable of filing /G. Good autopilot integration or more capable AP to give equal features, weather and traffic is important as well as not being stuck without a backup in the soup.

Here is my first pass at a GRT based system.



As you can see the equipment list is:

Dual GRT, with weather option & ARINC interface, undecided Sport or Horizon
GRT EIS
TT DFII VSGV
ASI
TT ADI
ALT
CDI/GS
PS AP
430W
SL30
G327
GX96
AFS AOA PRO on windscreen (not show)
ZAON PCAS connected to GRT (not shown)
There will be a strip added at the bottom for switches and other items

Since this AP and the GRT go together like peas and carrots, I will have only a switch to give the AP the choice between GRT or GPS as a source.

I have a few things unsettled if I go this route.

First is how to handle the CDI/GS indicator and it's integration with this system. Its function would be to be a backup to the GRT's HSI and I would have it connected to the SL30. How can this be done in regards to the OBS setting?

Second, Sport or Horizon? Seems the Sport now does everything the Horizon does except it has fewer serial ports and no analog ports. This limits the amount of renduncancy one can have because to have total independance between units, all critical serial data must be connected to both screens. To do what I want on the Sport, some things would be lost if one or the other screen died. How important should this be concidering the equipment and other options shown here?

Third is the weather feature on the GRT, I understand it is slower and has less features than the X86. People who have used both, can you comment on which is better and why?

Fourth is a traffic solution and at this point I only see two things in my price range and that is the Zaon or the mode S transponder. I like that the Zaon works anywhere but when the mode S works, it is more accurate. So what is everyone's thoughts on what to go with? The other question is does the Zaon work with both the Sport and the Horizon?

Fifth is how to handle backup power. I really don't want two main batteries. I will have a handheld Nav/com that can be connected to the external antenna. The ADI, X96 and GRT's will have a backup battery.

Sixth is 3.125 backup instruments or 2.25? If I go with the smaller ones, the CDI/GS and the AP would just swap places and this will give more room at the bottom for other things.

Do I even need the second Nav/Com and indicator?

[captain_john]

B,

I like it! I can't answer the GRT specific questions, but I will take on a few of the others.

I like the Zaon. AFS is setting up their machine to accept the Mode S "packets". I bet GRT is going to do the same. Adding a second belly antenna on the belly will improve reliability. I think this is coming from Zaon. Even without it, I still like the Zaon's broader coverage better. Garmin 327 for me too.

Just recently I changed my views on "E-Bus" considerations. There really aren't that many loads in need of management for the essential/endurance situation. I am eliminating the bigass diode and all that switching. Screwitall, I am putting the whole kaboodle on the main bus and load shedding as needed. We built our own plane, we know what this stuff pulls. Do the math in your head and shed all you can manually for endurance needs.

Lose the CDI, all that stuff comes up on the GRT and it shrinks your scan by including it in your primary display. As far as the back up instrument size, I am doing a Dynon D10 instead. It would free up ALOT of real estate for your switches and cost roughly the same as all those steam instruments.

My two!

CJ

[Brantel]

Based on feedback, I removed the stand alone cdi/gs indicator and moved the AP next to the stack.

90% sure it will be a Dual Sport GRT at this point because I put together a Dynon list and to get somewhat equal features, the Dynon solution and all the extra's cost about $3K more. Maybe this will change when they release info on there AP. Hurting Dynon is the fact that I have to go with a more expensive AP to get similar features to the GRT/TTDFIIVSGV combo and that I must add a 496 to get a map/weather/traffic right in front of me. Plus for Dynon is the AOA solution is included and they have a battery backup option.

AFS is out of my price range, MGL looks too big even with the Voyager and the Enigma seems short on interfaces.

[svanarts]

I think the panel should be orange, not blue.

[bullojm1]

Brantel-

From what I understand, the GRT sport's don't have a analog input - i.e. no way to input the position of the flaps, elevator trim and aileron trim (if you have it). I don't see any LED segment bars on your panel for trim indication.....do you know something I don't?

[weezbad]

you may want to represent the switches and breakers (if using them) they take up more space than you think and you need more of them than you think. are you using vans harness? i did but would not again.
what about a ign sw, light dimmer, park brake handle, cabin heat, alt air,? i left all this off until i started and really slowed me down not having it pre planed. the gps will be hard to see way over there..you may want to get the angle brkt for it. thaT AEROGIZMO brkt was the worst fitting part of my panel. it is not square.

[Brantel]

Brantel-

From what I understand, the GRT sport's don't have a analog input - i.e. no way to input the position of the flaps, elevator trim and aileron trim (if you have it). I don't see any LED segment bars on your panel for trim indication.....do you know something I don't?

I asked Carlos at GRT this very question and yes you can do it, you connect them to the EIS system.

The analogs that come on the Horizon are mostly used to provide redundancy for the ARINC interface to radio's such as the 430.

[bullojm1]

I asked Carlos at GRT this very question and yes you can do it, you connect them to the EIS system.

Awesome! Man, I just think I switched my panel to GRT. The dual GRT price was only $500 more than the dual dynons. I like the presentation of the GRT's a lot better than the Dynons. The only thing I think I am losing would be 1) AOA and 2) Battery backup.

Thanks for the info Brantel!

[Brantel]

you may want to represent the switches and breakers (if using them) they take up more space than you think and you need more of them than you think. are you using vans harness? i did but would not again.
what about a ign sw, light dimmer, park brake handle, cabin heat, alt air,? i left all this off until i started and really slowed me down not having it pre planed. the gps will be hard to see way over there..you may want to get the angle brkt for it. thaT AEROGIZMO brkt was the worst fitting part of my panel. it is not square.

Right now just trying to decide on the big ticket items. I won't be using Van's harness. I really am a long way from buying anything so I have time to plan for the fine items. If I do put the 296 over there, I will use the angle adaptor. The 296 really is not needed in this setup but since I have it, I want to put it in.

I may delete the SL30 and if I do, I will put it in the radio stack.

Anyone got any thoughts on the SL30 and if I should poop can it? Seems like the 430W and the 296 for backup could do a good job. I would like to use that $3500 somewhere else. I have a handheld SP200 and I plan on making provisions for an external antenna connection for it. Would you concider all this an acceptable replacement for the SL30 that would get little use otherwise.

[Wicked Stick]

Why not put in an SL40 or iCOM A210 in place of the SL30 ?

[Brantel]

I asked Carlos at GRT this very question and yes you can do it, you connect them to the EIS system.

Awesome! Man, I just think I switched my panel to GRT. The dual GRT price was only $500 more than the dual dynons. I like the presentation of the GRT's a lot better than the Dynons. The only thing I think I am losing would be 1) AOA and 2) Battery backup.

Thanks for the info Brantel!

I did a cost comparison today to see how this GRT Sport based panel compared to the D100/120 combo. I added accessory items to the Dynon in order to get the same or similar features that this panel would provide. I also added a more expensive AP to give similar features as the GRT/DFIIVSGV combo gives. A 496 for Map and Weather as well.

The Dynon came out about $3K higher than the Dual Sport. Couple things that are advantages to the Dynon are the AOA and the backup batteries. But a backup battery for the GRT is no more expensive than the two batteries for the Dynon.

The GRT also has two redundant AHRS's as well. Constantly cross checking and if one goes South both screens will run on the other one. To do that with the Dynon means more $$$ for a D180/100 combo.

All this stuff sure makes your head spin....

[Brantel]

Why not put in an SL40 or iCOM A210 in place of the SL30 ?

Definately in concideration. With the difference, I could move up to the Horizon for more redundancy and add the backup COM. HMMMM....

[bullojm1]

I asked Carlos at GRT this very question and yes you can do it, you connect them to the EIS system.

Brantel-

I was asking Carlos some questions about the analog input as well, and this is what I was told. The EIS has 6 analog inputs that can be used for trim indicators, fuel level (left and right each use an input), fuel pressure, ammeter, and MAP. If you have three trim indicators, then you have to figure out what two other options you don't want displays. He said the only way around it would be to upgrade to the Horizon series, which has 8 analog inputs.

[Brantel]

That was the thing I did not get around to finding out yet. I figured there would be some limitation.

I will most likely put the elevator trim in the panel because I have that indicator. I will use the GRT for the flaps and I have manual aileron trim.

Heck I might even just put the indicator for the flaps on the panel as well to keep it similar.

If I decide to go with the Horizon (~$1550 more), I will put them both on the GRT.

How does this impact your decision?

I asked Carlos at GRT this very question and yes you can do it, you connect them to the EIS system.

Brantel-

I was asking Carlos some questions about the analog input as well, and this is what I was told. The EIS has 6 analog inputs that can be used for trim indicators, fuel level (left and right each use an input), fuel pressure, ammeter, and MAP. If you have three trim indicators, then you have to figure out what two other options you don't want displays. He said the only way around it would be to upgrade to the Horizon series, which has 8 analog inputs.

[bullojm1]

How does this impact your decision?

Well, I am certainly not going to upgrade to the Horizons for just the two additional analog inputs! ($2400 price difference). Since I lose a AOA, I am thinking about rolling my own AOA (using Dynons pitot)/ Flap Position / Trim Position embedded controller. Probably make the display a small color LCD on the panel.

[Brantel]

How does this impact your decision?

Well, I am certainly not going to upgrade to the Horizons for just the two additional analog inputs! ($2400 price difference). Since I lose a AOA, I am thinking about rolling my own AOA (using Dynons pitot)/ Flap Position / Trim Position embedded controller. Probably make the display a small color LCD on the panel.

I was comparing prices to the Dual Sport with dual screens with AHRS in them. If you are going to have only one AHRS, yes this is a steep adder just for trim indicators.

You can have allot more redundancy with the Horizon on how you connect everything to it. It has more connections which allow more rollover options if one screen dies. The dual AHRS is a plus as well. But is it worth it?????

Your solution sounds interesting. Offer that as a product....

[bullojm1]

The way I was going to implement the screens was having the EIS feed into the MFD, and the EFIS interconnected to the MFD. That way if I lose the MFD, I lose engine info only, and if I lose the EFIS, I still have the engine data. That is enough redundancy for me since I will have a ASI, ADI and ALT steam gauges for backup. I hope I can do that.

All that redundancy isn't worth it to me. I dont plan on flying that much IFR. I figure if I demand that much redundancy out of my panel, I should also demand it out of the rest of the systems on the project - dual alternator, dual battery and DUAL ENGINES! Gotta draw the line somewhere.

My solution is somewhat easy to implement. I am shopping around for a decent display.

[cnpeters]

Like this discussion. Hadn't given much thought to the GRT - was not swayed in the past year from the Dynon D-100/D180 combo until this. VFR day/night is my mission, and would like the dual AHRS (as opposed to single AHRS plus steam gauge redundancy. Latter really not cheaper). Looking up pricing for my setup (including probes, OAT, Fuel flow) it comes real close, but can add the GPS for only $450 more. I was debating the AvMAP EKP-IV vs Garmin 496 (hate the tiny screen) with the Dynons - which is cool as all have similar sized screens - but what would be the point of paying for this if I get the GRT with the much cheaper GPS addition? Also, does the GRT have user defined checklists like the Dynon? Couldn't find it on the website.

[cnpeters]

BTW - I note GRT's website states NO analog inputs for the Sport. In the aforementioned comment from Carlos was he referring to this Sport series and thus the website is wrong?

[bullojm1]

BTW - I note GRT's website states NO analog inputs for the Sport. In the aforementioned comment from Carlos was he referring to this Sport series and thus the website is wrong?

True, the Sport does not have ANY analog inputs. The Sport relies in the EIS 4000 for the analog inputs. It has 6 of them you get to choose to use for trim settings, flap position, MAP, fuel pressure, fuel level, etc.. Carlos said to me the only thing the Sport does have an analog input for is OAT.