engine quality aftermarket versus Lycoming

[simatos]

Looking down gun barrel regarding engine purchase and I have been really struck with the problems in engine and part quality for after market engines
if the online chatter is any indication. As engines are running around $27,000 to start, the "OLD STANDARD" Lycoming from Van's is starting to look pretty good. Any thoughts???

[captain_john]

Gary,

The six I fly has a Vans/Lycoming O-360 A1A and it is really nice. Nothing wrong with it and it is probably the best engine Lycoming ever made for many reasons.

For my -7 I bought a Mattituck TMX IO-360 with Precision Airflow fuel injection. It is essentially an ECi engine with the chrome cylinders and standard lifters.

My friend is flying behind one in his -7 right now and has over 200 hours on it in less than 2 years.

I would also consider a Superior engine as well. Mike Bullock has one of those and it seems to spin the fan just fine.

Sure, they all have had a problem here or there. What are you thinking? What would you like to have in an engine? What kind of prop do you like? A Vans engine might just be the ticket for you.

CJ

[Bob Barrett]

A lot of guys have been using Aero Sport Engine British Columbia or there about. I have had two friends that went that route and were very happy. I used an O-320 160 HP Lyc at my Brother and I overhauled under the close supervision of the Owner of (8Y6) My Brother took it apart and cleaned things up then we took it to his shop, replaced some of the valves ground others, cleaned the heads, had crankshaft ground, put in new rings, bearings, new camshaft etc. Then engine ran well and was easy on oil and 100LL. I have since sold the airplane but it has over 200 hours on it. We did this back in 2001 and the cost was not extravagant. About $9500.

[jimball]

You might want to give me a try at building a new engine configured the way you want it at ECi. Yes, I work there, I've headed the kit program for many years. Now ECi is building engines and including a 2 hr. test run-in. Many options are avialable.

Just making you aware that you have choices,it's a competative market.

Jim Ball (J.B.)

[simatos]

Thanks you guys, I think the chatter regarding cylinder problems I found pretty unsettling.

I am building the 7A. My thinking at this time is a fixed pitch prop, not yet arrived at using the 320 versus the 360 with carb. Want to keep it simple. Just too many choices out there.

I appreciate your comments.

Gary

[jimball]

I'm glad that the cylinder subject came up. ECi has had problems (2 Airworthiness Directives for parallel valve cylinderrs manufactured through 2006) and dedicated a great deal if R& D time and resources to optimizing the manufacture of cylinders. Airmotive Engineering uses a destructive testing machine that is used to research, refine, and evaluate cylinder integrity and durability. Through that research, the ECi cylinders now last over twice as long as cylinder made by other manufacturers. Recalls and AD's are no fun and extremely expensive. ECi has replaced thousands of affected cylinders under warranty and continues to do so. ECi now manufactures the best cylinders in the industry. See "Cage Fighting for Cylinders at eci.aero for more information.
Jim

[captain_john]

Gary, I too saw the ECi cylinder problems and was a tad gun shy as well. MANY people (not from ECi) and several from ECi all agreed that the cylinder problems are all in the rear view now so I was confident in my decision to go with their product.

I know of at least several people personally affected by the recall. It is certainly a hassle and just not right to have a brand new airplane with a known AD issue.

You mention simplicity. Ya know... fuel injection is pretty darned simple too. Even if you want to go fixed pitch (and, BTW... look into a Sterba wooden prop. Have one on the -6 and it absolutely ROCKS!) the fuel injection is a good choice. The components are easy to maintain, troubleshoot and none too costly. Besides, you can do the lean of peak thing very reliably and dial the temps in very accurately.

Also consider the 360 over the 320. It isn't much more loot but it is a WAAAAY bigger kick in the pants!

JB, tell me about the pushrod shroud thing. When a kit is shipped (say to Mattituck) does it come with pushrod shroud retainer spring clips? I have a Mattituck TMX ECi based engine and saw that some retainer springs were breaking. Should I be concerned?

CJ

[jimball]

The push rod retainer springs in a Mattituck TMX engine may or may not be the thin ones that are brittle and may break. Generaly, the affected ones broke at assembly and were caught right away. If you have any doubts, please call ECi and a set of new lock plates, retainers and rocker cover gaskets will be sent to you at no charge. You have the option of cork or silicone gaskets. If you do not have oil seeping by the push rod tubes, you're probably not affected.
J.B.
ECi ph 800 324 2359

Man, I miss those guys at Mattituck, what a great team that was !

[simatos]

CJ:
The Fuel Injection system sounds interesting. i got the impression it was pretty complicated. For our planes, you need quite an exotic fuel pump arrangement, is that right? Do you need additional return lines to the tanks??
If the pumps are electric, aren't ya hooped if your electric quits??? Never understood that.

[BSwayze]

CJ:
The Fuel Injection system sounds interesting. i got the impression it was pretty complicated. For our planes, you need quite an exotic fuel pump arrangement, is that right? Do you need additional return lines to the tanks??
If the pumps are electric, aren't ya hooped if your electric quits??? Never understood that.

Gary, I'm certainly no expert on engines. I'm in a big learning curve right now, in fact. But I know this much. It's not complicated as you might fear. I'm building a 7A and will be flying fixed pitch, too. I built my plane with fuel injection in mind.

Here's how I see it. You're going to install a boost pump either way. Only difference is, the F.I. system uses a higher pressure pump. As I understand it, the boost pump is only used on takeoffs and landings, as it functions as a BACKUP for the engine's mechanical fuel pump. The rest of the time you're flying, the engine's mechanical pump takes care of fuel flow just fine. So if you have an electric system failure, the fan up front keeps turning. Regarding the mechanical fuel pump on the engine, you swap out the standard Lycoming mechanical fuel pump with a higher pressure version designed for F.I. It looks identical, part of the engine, it just creates higher pressure.

Some F.I. systems use a return line, some don't. But it's not a big deal.

As far as being complicated... how complicated is a carburator? For someone not familiar with one, it would probably appear as a mysterious gadget with lots of moving parts, potential problems, subject to carb ice, etc.

I hope this helps. If I'm wrong on something, I hope someone corrects me.

[simatos]

Bruce, did you set up your fuel lines with provision for return lines to the tanks?? Did I see an ad for the Andair Fuel injection pump that does not need the return lines?

[captain_john]

Jim, Can you tell by looking at the retainer clips???

Here is a picture of mine:



I heard that some of them were shiny and others not. I dunno...

I am glad that you work at ECi!!! I really like the company! When I was at OSH last year, I stopped by the tent and chatted with someone (I forget his name but have his business card around here somewhere) who really instilled confidence in my ECi decision. His knowledge was TREMENDOUS!

Yes, those guys at Mattituck were awesome! So sad that the whole Mattituck thing is no longer. They will be missed...

Gary, naw... the FI systems in many ways are SIMPLER than a carburetor. Mine has a Precision Airmotive system installed and Alan Jesmer is the traveling technical guru for them. I met him at a local EAA shindig and MAN, is HE a WEALTH of information too! When I stopped by his booth at OSH, I stepped behind the table and helped him sell his wares for a bit. He told me things about the Precision system that I never knew.

On a side note, there are TWO very distinct ways of starting a FI engine. For over a decade I have been using the Lycoming method that is kind of a rub your belly and then pat your head kind of method. Recently I discovered that the Conti method is easily applied and works WELL with the Lycomings as well... and it is MUCH simpler!

Check out this video:

http://www.katmai-260se.com/video-cold-starts.html

BTW, we have one of those Katmai conversions on field and MAN is it impressive!!!

Anywhoooo... The FI install isn't dependent on the electric pump for ongoing running of the engine no more than a carburetor is. It is just a boost pump that serves for priming and as a backup, just as on a carb engine.

Here is a picture of my Andair install:







Overall, I like my Andair installation and would consider them again. If you want a certified pump, a Weldon will do fine. There are others too like the Airflow Performance one that Van sells. Don Rivera makes that one. He worked for Bendix (now owned by the same company that owns Precision Airmotive and is essentially the same as the system that I have sans the legal paperwork) for many years and started his company in the 80'sm as I recall. He sells a complete FI system that is quite nice.

The ECi one is very good too. Jim will be able to tell you some information about that one. As I recall, it is very similar to the Conti design. The Conti design is very highly regarded as being a quality setup.

Finally, Rob Paisley has his EFII setup. He is an RV guy and his rep is really good too.

Soooo the decisions and choices are many. You needn't have a return line, although I installed one in both my tanks it turns out that I won't need them and will simply block them off.

Bruce is right. The FI simply uses a higher operating pressure electric pump, but the mechanical one (pretty sure) is the same as the one on carb engines.

The FI system can also run lean of peak and that returns MUCH BETTER fuel economy on long trips and extends your range significantly!

The FI system is very end user serviceable once you see and understand how it works. A visit to the Precision Airmotive booth at OSH or an email to Alan Jesmer would be a great start!

Does this help?

CJ

[BSwayze]

Bruce, did you set up your fuel lines with provision for return lines to the tanks?? Did I see an ad for the Andair Fuel injection pump that does not need the return lines?

Gary, when I built my wings I put a fuel return line in one of the tanks, but I probably won't use it. I'll just leave it plugged. But it's there if I need it. I have a good friend who plumbed his return line into a tee just ahead of the fuel selector valve, right back into the fuel line. So there's more than one way to skin this cat, if it turns out that you need a return line.

I have an Andair boost pump, probably the same one CJ has, so I don't think I'll need a return line. This is a very good pump.



The whole setup is very simple. I like simplicity.

[simatos]

Bruce-CJ

boy, you guys are sure weaving a pretty compelling case for FI. I have learned alot from your comments and pictures. Thanks for taking the time to put your responses together. That Andair pump looks like the answer. you guys sure do nice work from what I see in the pics also. I think Im gonna aim for the FI 360.

[hydroguy2]

When I was building my -7, I had the same issues as you. Engine prices were climbing faster than I could decide what I wanted. Shopped all the big names, wanted all the fancy stuff. But my wallet couldn't take it. SO....

Don't forget about having an engine built for you. I found a guy selling a 0smoh O-360. I called him and ask if he had any IO-360.....nope, but he would build what ever I wanted. So I had him swap out the sumps for a superior cold sump, I bought a AFP injection unit for installation. He credited me for bought Mags, I supplied Emag/Pmags. Ordered 9:1 pistons. Anyway it makes about 190hp and fully expect a 2000TBO.

At the time I figure I saved about $4000-5000, over a new big name engine. I think with prices today the savings may be higher.

Here's what my engine, cost less than $21000 ready to run.


I too went with the FI. It makes smooth power and I believe it saves about 1gph over the carb. But hard to say for sure as each plane is different. I have a clean plane, constant speed prop and James cowl.

[captain_john]

Brian, that was a great deal!!! Well said too!

I have no remorse over my TMX/ECi decision.

Seeing as there is no more Long Island, New York Mattituck group anymore, I would probably be talking to Jim Ball (on this forum, in this thread) about the exact same engine.

The Group B cylinder problem that ECi had is a thing of the past. Yes, I am sure it was a tough pill for many to swallow and I know some people who haven't swallowed it yet! Fact of the matter is, the new cylinders are not affected and they seem to work well. Having the hardened bores is an excellent corrosion preventive measure and was pivotal in my decision.

If the cylinders don't rust, pit and corrode, it will keep compression high and ferrous particles won't be in large numbers in the oil... which could cause other problems.

The FI is just a better method of induction if you ask me. It was the only way for me to go.

My two!



CJ

[hydroguy2]

For some reason I really like engine pictures.

Nice one CJ

[captain_john]

Thanks Bri!

That was a momentus day for me!

CJ

[BSwayze]

Bruce is right. The FI simply uses a higher operating pressure electric pump, but the mechanical one (pretty sure) is the same as the one on carb engines.
CJ

CJ,

I was just reading through this thread again and I thought I should clarify something you said about the engine-driven fuel pumps on our engines.

There are two different models typically used on the engine, assuming you have a "late-model" engine produced after 1978. The model #LW-15472 is a low-pressure unit ~4-6 PSI for carburated engines. The model #LW-15473 is a high-pressure unit ~25-30 PSI for use on a fuel-injected engine. Here's the thing... they look identical! They cost the same, too. (overhauled ones are about half the price, and as good as new, btw)

Does yours look like this?



The only way to know what you have is to look at the model # stamped on the shoulder of the unit. Here's the low-pressure unit I just removed from my engine. You can see the model # (ignore the last 4 digits... they have to do with the date of mfr) stamped on, 15472, indicating this is a low-pressure pump:



I had a hard time seeing it until I used my camera to reach over the rear of the engine and take a closeup picture. Then I knew I had to swap it out for the model # 15473 hi-pressure unit.

There's a chart on this page, showing the different pump models and the pressures they produce:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/e ... kkey=17874

And also here:

http://www.aeroaccessories.com/fuelpumps/lycoming.html

Be sure to check and make sure you have the high-pressure unit for your F.I. engine. You don't want any unpleasant surprises when you start flying.

[captain_john]

Bruce, I saw on the other board that you have had some experience in this regard. I then was going to come back here and make the correction.

You beat me to it!

Good catch!

I am certain that Mattituck installed the correct pump in my engine, as I saw it run correctly.

Good to know the details of these things in case you ever have a problem while away!

CJ